Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[BleedingHeart]

Skavau went "straving babies routine." That is ubiquitous in the freethinker act.



Think or act? They both say the same things about Christianity.



Evolution driven. The selfish gene on display for all to see.



And starving babies and flying snorkle/spaghetti monsters all in a row.



So what? There are gay republicans too.

It's perfectly easy to see us as something other than homogenized unless you are a moron...and you are.

Isn't that a flame? That's perfectly easy to see.



Think the same? Are you saying that Jesus doesn't hold us all accountable for our very thoughts? He said he does.



And in that, you have proven my point about atheists.[/quote]

1. It's a form of logic. Starving babies gives no reason to believe that God exists.
2. So? Just because they agree on one topic doesn't make them the same. Millions of Americans love Coca Cola. Castro loved Coca Cola. Does that make them the same?
3. That has nothing to do with evolution.
4. No idea what you mean by that.
5. So what? So it means that atheists don't all think the same. I'm starting to see why you keep making the same erroneous statements. When demonstrate how you are wrong you just put your hands over your ears and say: I can't here you!
6. Well I thought the insult "blatant liar" would be kind of advanced for you.
7. No, that's not what I said. I said, you Christians generally think the same. I said nothing about Jesus.
8. Which point? The point that they think the same even though they can have widely different economic and political viewpoints.

 

[Rajni]

Bump:


This doesn't answer my question. I'm not so much focusing on what the word "eternal" or "aionios" mean. I am focusing primarily on what Christ meant when He said the "good" will rise to live and the "evil" will rise to be condemned. Those who rise to live will receive life and those who rise to be condemned will receive punishment. Life or Punishment. Those are the alternatives. How do you reconcile the words of Christ with your idea that everyone will rise to live and none condemned?

I don't see condemnation / punishment as necessarily meaning
endless torment in hell.

Also, in response to this: Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You said this: "The duration of aionios (the Greek word which the English words "eternal", "everlasting" and "forever" replace) is determined by the subject to which it refers."

The subjects to which "aionios" refer in the verse above is "punishment" and "life". Is the "life" temporary or eternal? If the life is eternal why would the punishment be any different since "aionios" is used to refer to both subjects?

I believe the punishment would not be endless because that for which
it's being administered is not endless. God's aim was to take away the
sin of the world, to have victory over evil. Therefore, whatever stands
in need of being punished won't last forever, if indeed God is
victorious.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Luke 18:19--"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

 

[Rajni]

I didn't say that. I'm actually undecided on that point, and don't see how resolving that would make one iota of difference.

I think it makes a huge difference. For me it felt like God dropped His
entire Kingdom on top of me from heaven and I no longer had to wait
to croak before feeling as though I was walking in its midst. Having
the same level of confidence in His saving everyone that I previously
had in His saving me brought a peace I never had prior to that.

What I'm saying is that anything leading to separation from God will be burned out from within us, if we choose to walk in God's Love. Which is a very real possibility, in the here and now.

.

 

[BleedingHeart]

"They are led astray alright. And they know it. Otherwise they wouldn't be here. I don't join atheist sites in hopes to be saved in Darwin. And why wate time asking questions of the closed minded. Or, rather, those that have mad a choice to hate Christians and Christianity. And there is no doubt about it being hate. Think about it, hundreds of millions of Christians go into and out of Churches all over the worlf and come out to engage the world in normality. Nothing more than that. Yet, you'ld think we come out with swords and mob rule. Interesting how that utterly fits the secularists though.'
--Tergle

1. Yet another fallacy by theists: the one where they pretend to know what the atheist is really, REALLY thinking! I come here to argue. Theists may hate me for it, but I love doing it.
2. Tergle you don't join atheist sites because you'd be torn apart, especially when one considers the fact that all you do is accuse atheists of things they don't do.
3. Atheists don't think you can be "saved" by Darwin.
4. The atheists on those forums don't hate Christians or Christianity. They just don't believe that Christianity is true. You tell them that Christianity is real, they'll say "prove it". Prove it means using scientific evidence. If
But hey, you've never been on the atheist forums, so you of course you wouldn't know that. I wish you'd go there, and just ask them about their viewpoints so you could educate yourself.

 

[Rajni]

First, the Bible makes it plain the only sinless person is Jesus.

I agree, but previously (post #594) you had said that there is no sin in
hell. If there are people in hell, but no sin in hell, I'm thinking those people
would be sinless at that point, in which case why would they need to be
there receiving endless torment?

.

 

[The Beautiful Heresy]

I think it makes a huge difference. For me it felt like God dropped His
entire Kingdom on top of me from heaven and I no longer had to wait
to croak before feeling as though I was walking in its midst. Having
the same level of confidence in His saving everyone that I previously
had in His saving me brought a peace I never had prior to that.





.

Amen, Words do not describe the transformation that took place in me. I could not go back even if I tried, once you know, you know.

 

[razeontherock]

What ape man thought up the violin or Marshall stack. Even 21st century ape men.

I really do think Beethoven would've found good uses for modern instruments, including Marshall stacks. (And no, musical ability really can't be confused w/ cognitive abilities. In some cases talent is such that it can only be the gift of G-d)

 

[razeontherock]

I think it makes a huge difference. For me it felt like God dropped His
entire Kingdom on top of me from heaven and I no longer had to wait
to croak before feeling as though I was walking in its midst. Having
the same level of confidence in His saving everyone that I previously
had in His saving me brought a peace I never had prior to that.

Ok, I agree with all this EXCEPT for the part of Him saving everyone, even those who knowingly reject Him, choose to serve satan, etc etc. One post up and you seem to accept that some will be condemned and not need to bat an eye about it, but only comment that such condemnation need not = eternal punishment.

Can you explain? And if you really hold that none will be condemned, what do you base that on?

 

[razeontherock]

4. atheists ... don't hate Christians or Christianity.

Some do. You do realize that, right?

You tell them that Christianity is real, they'll say "prove it". Prove it means using scientific evidence.

You do realize how silly this is? My stock reply is "God cannot be controlled in a test tube." Please think this through to see why this thoroughly dismisses any query for scientific proof.

I wish you'd go there, and just ask them about their viewpoints so you could educate yourself.

That can be done on CF, although there was a mass exodus last year.

 

[razeontherock]

I agree, but previously (post #594) you had said that there is no sin in
hell. If there are people in hell, but no sin in hell, I'm thinking those people
would be sinless at that point, in which case why would they need to be
there receiving endless torment?

Aahhh, gotcha. Whatever hell is, there is no sin there because it has been stopped. In that way God is victorious, and has reconciled all things to himself. This also does need to be an eternal condition. (Which could mean til the end of the age, at which time ... countless possibilities we can't fathom but seems to suggest everything starting anew, not completely unlike reincarnation)

This does not necessarily have to be a condition of eternal suffering for disobedient mortals, but I REALLY would be on shaky ground for giving people any false sense of security about that.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Some do. You do realize that, right?



You do realize how silly this is? My stock reply is "God cannot be controlled in a test tube." Please think this through to see why this thoroughly dismisses any quest for scientific proof.



That can be done on CF, although there was a mass exodus last year.

1. Yes I do realize that, although I can imagine it's because they've met Christians like Tergle rather than you.
2. My stock reply is "neither can a unicorn".

 

[Skavau]

Anyone with flesh would say so. This has been one of my main purposes for engaging you on this subject.

And yet it still took you so long to say so. Now I will ask you a direct question (as you're so elusive): Do you believe that God is involved or complicit in the torture of any group of people in the afterlife?

Maybe that's why i didn't say that? I'm not that fond of the word horrendous, but I did use an apples to apples comparison. You distorting that so it is no longer apples to apples is deceitful, and I don't appreciate it.

Yes you did and your rejection on this point is deceitful. I will quote you:

Whether the doctrine of eternal torture is true or false, this much I agree with. But open your eyes to the world we find ourselves living in! We find horrendous things all around. Pretending they don't exist is no solution. With natural things, we learn to cope, and usually by preparation. Why should the Spiritual realm be any different?

If that is not a comparison to the hypothetical evil that could exist in the spiritual realm with the natural evil that does exist in the real world, then I don't know what is.

You distorting that so it is no longer apples to apples is deceitful, and I don't appreciate it.

So don't say it then.

Why move the goalposts to natural disasters? If you were an Arab living in your homeland, scorpions might be a fact of life. As well as cobras and other nasty things. These are not disasters - until one strikes.

I didn't move the goalposts. I just chose to focus on natural disasters. Concerning scorpions and other 'malicious' creatures: There's not a great deal we can do about them either (short of attempted genocide). They aren't moral agents and we cannot moderate their behaviour, so the best we can do is avoid them and treat any bites or stings they may give us.

These are not disasters - until one strikes. Urbanized areas like to seem free of such, but NYC's rat population is legendary, and your turf has a legend of Peter somebody ...

Peter Sutcliffe? Yeah, I've commented on him many times. What about him?

So explain why one of the most venemous creatures on the planet is common in and around US households? Why did God create scorpions, cobras, man eating tigers, great white sharks, etc?

That's a question you should be asking yourself. I'm an atheist.

Open your eyes man; your puppy dogs and rainbows version of reality does not exist. You may complain all this is unjust and we have a saying for that; "life isn't fair." Doesn't change a thing, and we still need to deal with it.

I never once ever at any time either in this thread or anywhere ever have suggested that life is fair, or that a rainbow version of reality. What does your assumptions about my beliefs (something you have repeatedly complained about) here have to do with eternal torture?

 

[Skavau]

If you willingly reject God's truth, then you willingly decide to go to hell.

Utter nonsense. If Islam turned out to be true, would you be rejecting the infallibility of the Qu'ran and therefore deciding to enter hellfire?

Of course not. You would have simply been mistaken all along and if Christianity turns out to be true then the same would be for me.

You've heard the Gospel. You know what God says will take place for those who reject Him.

I've heard Christians dictate to me what they think the gospel involves. I've also heard belatedly Jewish lectures (it was very boring) and I've been evangelised by Muslims. Who and why should I hold Christianity to a lesser standard than I hold the others?

They do know He exists by the things of nature and they CHOOSE to reject Him.

So then you hold that every single atheists on this entire planet is a liar. You are literally embracing a conspiracy that involves 20%+ of the entire planet. Why are you even bothering to debate atheists if this is what you really feel?

And where on earth did I say anything about malicious intent?

Excuse me, if you believe that I reject God and reject the sacrifice despite knowing that God exists then what other intent do you think that I could have?

 

[Skavau]

You do realize that you have made yourself above the Biblical God right? This runs so common in you guys.

I would think I was doing something wrong if I wasn't putting myself above the Biblical God when I deride those who say that said Biblical God is involved in the eternal torture of people for thought-crime.

A far more logical response would be "I don't belive in God." And that finishes the discussion about hell. And move on to trying to fix the violence and vice of secular cities.

Actually, it does not finish the conversation at all. I won't be told that I must concede that those who make excuses for torture and thought-crime must be respected.

 

[Zaac]

Utter nonsense.

Utter truth that neither you nor any person on the face of the earth has to like.

If Islam turned out to be true, would you be rejecting the infallibility of the Qu'ran and therefore deciding to enter hellfire?

And if the moon were made of cheese...

Islam doesn't preach the truth, so find something else to harp on.

Of course not. You would have simply been mistaken all along and if Christianity turns out to be true then the same would be for me.

Nice red fish. We're talking about following Jesus Christ and not some pie in the sky what if.

I've heard Christians dictate to me what they think the gospel involves. I've also heard belatedly Jewish lectures (it was very boring) and I've been evangelised by Muslims. Who and why should I hold Christianity to a lesser standard than I hold the others?

That's completely up to you. If you really wanted the truth, you would have been given discernment for the truth. As it stands, your heart is hardened and you believe what YOU want to believe because it lets you do what you want.

A lot of folks feel like that. But unfortunately a lot of folks wil spend eternity in the lake of fire.

So then you hold that every single atheists on this entire planet is a liar.

I hold what God says. The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.” Psalm 14:1

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. Romans 1:18-19

So if that means that I believe that every atheists on the planet is a liar, then in accordance with God's word, you're darn skippy. I believe every atheists on the planet is a liar.

You are literally embracing a conspiracy that involves 20%+ of the entire planet. Why are you even bothering to debate atheists if this is what you really feel?

Gosh I don't debate atheists. People debate opinions. I repeating and preaching the same Gospel that I have repeated and preached for the last 30 years.

Excuse me, if you believe that I reject God and reject the sacrifice despite knowing that God exists then what other intent do you think that I could have?

Excuse you because as I have said on numerous occasions on this board, you nor anyone else has to think I meant to say anything or that I had some other intent.

I'm capable of saying EXACTLY what I intend to say. So in that regard, if I intended to say your intent was malicious, that's what you would have read on your screen.

 

[Zaac]

Actually, it does not finish the conversation at all. I won't be told that I must concede that those who make excuses for torture and thought-crime must be respected.

And as I have said so many times, right here is the crux of the issue with most atheists or people who speak against God's word.

They simply cannot stand that they be told what to do or what is right by anyone. They want to be their own little gods.

And that's what's so sadly silly about this is that you guys think you're putting the ones who give you God's truth in their "place", but all I picture is a cartoon character running into a brick wall, backing up and doing it again and again and again and again until that day they stand before God and are tossed into the lake of fire.

Very sad indeed.

 

[razeontherock]

2. My stock reply is "neither can a unicorn".

Touche Although do I need to point out there aren't millions of shrines all over the world dedicated to unicorns? There are quite a few ways the comparison doesn't hold up.

 

[Skavau]

Utter truth that neither you nor any person on the face of the earth has to like.

You are implicitly calling all atheists liars. I won't hold any respect for that tone of voice. I won't be told that I must be rejecting hell when I am not.

And if the moon were made of cheese...

Islam doesn't preach the truth, so find something else to harp on.

You have missed the point entirely. You don't consider yourself to be rejecting Jannah yet Muslims would argue that you are. Do you on that point contend with all seriousness that Muslims are rejecting heaven in favour of hell?

Nice red fish. We're talking about following Jesus Christ and not some pie in the sky what if.

It is entirely relevant. To make the asinine points that somehow all Non-Christians are choosing hell you have to believe the absurd. The absurd including the nonsense claim that Muslims are also rejecting hell.

That's completely up to you. If you really wanted the truth, you would have been given discernment for the truth. As it stands, your heart is hardened and you believe what YOU want to believe because it lets you do what you want.

That is not answering the question: Why should I hold Christianity to a lesser standard than I hold the other religions?

A lot of folks feel like that. But unfortunately a lot of folks wil spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Does that include Muslims? If so, how is that moral?

So if that means that I believe that every atheists on the planet is a liar, then in accordance with God's word, you're darn skippy. I believe every atheists on the planet is a liar.

So why are you here? If you believe every word I say is always going to be deception (at least concerning theology) then why bother? You have me down as necessarily malevolent in my statements regarding Christianity.

But I'm glad I got you to admit it at long last.

Gosh I don't debate atheists. People debate opinions. I repeating and preaching the same Gospel that I have repeated and preached for the last 30 years.

In that case then, when I rave against eternal torture for thought-crime I am debating against an opinion as well.

Excuse you because as I have said on numerous occasions on this board, you nor anyone else has to think I meant to say anything or that I had some other intent.

It took you long enough to finally admit what you felt about atheists.

I'm capable of saying EXACTLY what I intend to say. So in that regard, if I intended to say your intent was malicious, that's what you would have read on your screen.

If I all atheists can be nothing more than constant liars (which you finally admitted to believing) then how can my intent not be malicious?

 

[TerranceL]

You do realize that you have made yourself above the Biblical God right? This runs so common in you guys.

If it makes any difference to you I morally place myself above Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, Stalin and all other mass murderers too.

A far more logical response would be "I don't belive in God." And that finishes the discussion about hell. And move on to trying to fix the violence and vice of secular cities.

Violence and vice of secular cities?

Hahah, our prisons are filled with christians. And countries with the most atheists also have some of the least crime.