razeontherock
Well-Known Member
Since unbelievers here are always asking for evidence, I find this to be beautiful.
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The survival of the Jewish people against the odds. Reading the history drew me to believe that they were being protected and that I wanted to be one of them.
This has nothing to do with what I said. I was saying that no atheist deliberately and maliciously (as often presented) rejects God and rejects the offer of eternal life.
But I did not manipulate anything. I simply quoted what Christ said.
Here it is again:
"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." - Matt 13:49-50.
Do you disagree with this?
Notice how his position is countered by the reality that the writers of the New Testament cut out millions of financial contributors by their nasty hellish ideology.
Now look at this again:
benglobal's religion is the ad campaign of every beer company in the world.
It makes no sense that a power group would want to rule the world by rejecting so many people and making limits on behaviors.
atheists do not knowingly and deliberately reject Christianity
The "free from constraints" part is necessary to the definition of free will. It's the "free" part for pete's sake.
In what meaning are you using the word 'knowingly' here, may I ask?This is still a false statement, no matter how often you repeat it. There are atheists that knowingly and deliberately reject Christianity, and we have some participating in this thread. Don't let the facts affect your opinion though.
This has nothing to do with what I said. I was saying that no atheist deliberately and maliciously (as often presented) rejects God and rejects the offer of eternal life.
It was in response to his claim that atheists deliberately reject God and the offer of eternal life. Do you hold that there are atheists that willfully reject heaven and hold that atheists may reject God (or do reject God) on the basis of malice as people such as Zaac and citizenthom have argued?This is simply untrue. The 'some' that you are referring to are simply unaware of God's 'giving his life' and are unaware even of God existing. The fact that you would make excuses for that groups eternal torture is both troubling and nonsensical.
So then do you believe that all atheists maliciously and deliberately reject God then? If not all, then only some?
Good. Then you depart from the views of Zaac, who I was originally responding to.razeontherock said:It should be obvious that not all atheists, unbelievers, and otherwise non-Christian type people could possibly maliciously and deliberately reject G-d.
Of course. Which is why I was arguing against Zaac making the blanket statement that atheists knowingly refuse the opportunity to enter heaven.And note that rejection doesn't need to be malicious in any way. There are also degrees of deliberation. I recently encountered a statistic that something like 1.5 billion have never heard the Gospel preached. I have no idea how they arrived at that and I won't defend the number, but surely you recognize you can't lump all people into the same pigeonhole?
Because in the context it was used in by Zaac (which you appeared to be defending) suggested that all atheists secretly know that God exists and reject him and his promises anyway.So then the true statement we're left with is that some atheists willfully reject all knowledge and concept of G-d. I don't understand why this is difficult for you.
The judgment of eternal torture, or even torture for those who knowingly disobey would still be just as horrendous.Also, the Judgment of the Gospel concerns itself only with those who knowingly disobey. Now I have noticed you enjoy being enraged over your pet peeve, but a large portion of it just evaporated. Sorry 'bout that.
It's pretty clear in the Bible. Even people who go to church and claim to be a Christian can go to Hell. But I personally don't pass those judgements on people.
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Christians are not necessarily better people than atheists, but they have accepted the gift of eternal life. We all sin, Christians are not an exception to this. Although it is our job to live as Christ did.
In what meaning are you using the word 'knowingly' here, may I ask?
It was in response to his claim that atheists deliberately reject God and the offer of eternal life. Do you hold that there are atheists that willfully reject heaven
and hold that atheists may reject God (or do reject God) on the basis of malice as people such as Zaac and citizenthom have argued?
all atheists secretly know that God exists and reject him and his promises anyway.
The judgment of eternal torture, or even torture for those who knowingly disobey would still be just as horrendous.
(Or should I say not knowingly malicious?
I will just respond to this for now.razeontherock said:Whether the doctrine of eternal torture is true or false, this much I agree with. But open your eyes to the world we find ourselves living in! We find horrendous things all around. Pretending they don't exist is no solution. With natural things, we learn to cope, and usually by preparation. Why should the Spiritual realm be any different?
Wait, who's the one saying there is no free will?
So in order to have that, there can't be gravity, the need to breathe, or any other aspect of reality.
Any Prof teaching that would just have to fail me and do it quick before I make a monkey out of him in front of his students.
I don't have time for such foolishness, nor will I allow it to infect my mind.
Your definition is rejected for being perverse.
You can't be unknowingly malicious...
First of all I'm glad to see that you think eternal torture is horrendous. About time you said so.
Secondly, to contrast the potential of eternal torture with that of natural evil (a misnomer in itself) is inaccurate.
We can't do much about natural disasters.
We might someday have the technology to vastly alter weather conditions in our favour to prevent tornadoes but preventing atrocities such as earthquakes are impossible. We can only respond to them. This is simply not true of the 'spiritual' where eternal torture, if it did exist would be under the will of God and therefore be a moral evil. I don't distinguish between intelligent agents acting unjustly either in reality or in fantasy.
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