Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

Hespera · May 13, 2011

Zaac said:
You didn't have to expect to pay for it. GOD, the One Who gets to decide these things, decided that there would be a cost for disobeying Him.

Read His word. From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 there is an account of what Jesus did and how He has served mankind.

He came to save us from our OWN sin.

But who said He can't forgive? He forgives those who humbly recognize that they have wronged HIM and need His forgiveness.

God does that, not just anything, that is consistent with His character as He has displayed in the absolutely true word that He has given us.

You're not being a pain. You want some answers and there is nothing wrong with that.

Then forgive me because it was not my intent to insult you. So what is the god of the Buddhist?

You didn't have to expect to pay for it. GOD, the One Who gets to decide these things, decided that there would be a cost for disobeying Him.

i dont see the difference. Im told there is supposed to be payment.

Read His word. From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 there is an account of what Jesus did and how He has served mankind.

He hasnt done a thing for me or anyone in 2000 years. if he came to serve why isnt he doing anything?

He came to save us from our OWN sin.

i have heard it said that way but id be fine if this "god' just leaves me alone.
Its not MY "lake of fire" and not MY "hand' that would toss me in there.

He has displayed in the absolutely true word that He has given us.

if that is the same "true word" that gave us the noahs ark story, Im just not buying it at all. That story is not true.

I didnt feel insulted, I'd jsut like you to understand that you are wrong about 'being my own god'. A few psychos may think that. it is not characteristic of atheists. Do you understand that? Learning goes two ways.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

Hespera said:
Jesus paid for something for us that we were never expected to pay for?

He came to serve but what does he do?
He came to save us from himself?
A god that can do anything cant forgive?

Not meaning to be a pain but I just cant understand this at all.

You are not being a pain - these are all legitimate questions. Short little answers don't explain much; each of these involves vast understanding. I wish I could somehow transport you back in time so that your first exposure to Christianity was the Gospel of John. It is possible to discipline your mind to re-create that scenario; I highly recommend that.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

Freodin said:
Your version does not expand on that point or try to counter it... you are trying to make a completely different point, that has nothing to do with the raze's orgininal remark nor my counterexample.

False. His analogy is MUCH more valid and to the point than either of our's.

Your undying love may be admirable to some, but ultimately unrequited love is to no avail. Yes, as a species we have that power, as part of G-d having given us dominion.

ToddNotTodd · May 13, 2011

razeontherock said:
Then you'd have to keep certain people out.

Of course I wouldn't. I'd offer violent people an option. If they'd like to play nice with others, I'd give them compassion and then let them interact with others. If they'd rather stay the way they are, I'd give them their own version of heaven.

It really isn't difficult to find creative solutions to heaven better than the one presented in Christianity...

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

SithDoughnut said:
If bad people go to heaven, it won't matter, because direct contact will render free will largely meaningless anyway. With no suffering and no pain, then bad people can't do bad things regardless.

Obviously there's the whole issue with heaven as a reward, but then it would be easy to just not tell anyone about it, ask them to be good, and then let them have total free will, with no carrot and stick to drag them along. Good people will be good people whether heaven is waiting or not.

Nice scenario! Unfortunately I can't find a single element that actually plays out that way. For starters, look at the conflict between "with no suffering" and "bad people can't do bad things."

That's only true if they're dead.

Hmmm ... so the wages of sin being death maybe makes sense after all?

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

Freodin said:
Depends on where you buy them.

Say, you are American, right?

You aren't a teacher per chance?

Those that can't do, teach. I'm a doer.

b&wpac7 · May 13, 2011

razeontherock said:
Nice scenario! Unfortunately I can't find a single element that actually plays out that way. For starters, look at the conflict between "with no suffering" and "bad people can't do bad things."

This is why I like the purification period in Judaism. People who are bad would require a longer purification period, but they would eventually cease that behavior.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

m9lc said:
The issue is that I don't seek God's presence or seek to get away from God's presence - I just seek the truth. I've looked at the evidence, and I found it cognitively impossible to be a Christian. Trust me, I tried for a long time to be a Christian in spite of the glaring flaws that I saw in my beliefs, but in the end, I couldn't honestly believe in religion anymore.

Then you didn't find the same info i did.

ToddNotTodd · May 13, 2011

razeontherock said:
I find this fascinating. In your world, if I'm doing 65 down the highway and let go of the steering wheel, everything's ok. I don't have enough faith to put that one to the test!

That has nothing to do with freewill. I suggest you look up the term in a dictionary.

CaliforniaSun · May 13, 2011

razeontherock said:
False dichotomy; you fail to account for free will. (Or whatever you might prefer to call our ability to make choices)

My analogy assumes the power to save all people, even if they don't want to be saved. Much in the way a child might be pulled from RR tracks kicking and screaming because they don't understand the dangers of a freight train travelling at 80mph. This should clear it up.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

CaliforniaSun said:
As an atheist, it is not a position of acceptance or rejection for me. It is an intellectual postion of unbelief.

I understand this completely. Somehow you neglect the fact that every believer has worked through your current side of the coin. You're still making a false dichotomy that rejection and unbelief are separate.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

ToddNotTodd said:
it's amazing that the similarities between the nature of the Christian god and that of Greek and Roman gods aren't even noticed by most Christians.

So you've never heard of the Reformation?

Hespera · May 13, 2011

razeontherock said:
You are not being a pain - these are all legitimate questions. Short little answers don't explain much; each of these involves vast understanding. I wish I could somehow transport you back in time so that your first exposure to Christianity was the Gospel of John. It is possible to discipline your mind to re-create that scenario; I highly recommend that.

Sorry but i have no idea what you are talking about. Could you explain?

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

The Beautiful Heresy said:
Ok, thinking again. ( As usual) And just think, God thoughts so surpass mine so he must be thinking much better than even this.

This may be a run on sentence, so just work with me here.

God creates humans, he creates a literal burning chamber of fire that he will toss the humans in who do not agree with him, yet he gave them free will to make any decision they desire ( but sits back with his hands tied 'hoping' they make the right decision, because he can't interfere in the affairs of the men he created, he gave them free-will after all). Well, maybe if you pray the right prayer, oh but what is prayer for really in the end? Maybe prayer is what God uses to now force his hand to interfere in our free-will, oops..he can't interfere, then we would be robots.

The 'right' decision with this free-will is to choose to love God back or should I say 'agree' that Jesus is Lord and I need him, if I don't agree he is Lord and I need him then I made the wrong decision, so off to the burning chamber FOREVER AND EVER I go.

Looks like free-will is not that great after all, only if you use it wisely. So again, looks like God is really a nut with giving us free-will only to choose an outcome of eternal torment for us after he gave us 'choice'.

So much for free-will, I'd rather not have free-will then, I prefer to be a robot actually.

This is a process baby Christians go through, until realizing there is no switch on the back of the head to make us automatically obey G-d. As faas as G-d being a nut, that is what He says with "it repented me that I made man," re: Noah. Also, hell was not created for man, but for the devil and his angels. Account for these differences and see what you come up with ...

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

m9lc said:
Are you arguing that anyone would honestly choose eternal torture over Heaven when given an obvious choice? (And no, before you say it, Christianity on Earth doesn't count as an "obvious choice." It is obfuscated by a lack of objective evidence and thousands of other religions to choose from.)

Yah, I see what you're doing there, trying to do an end roun around the need for Faith. Sorry Charlie.

m9lc said:
The falsehood of what belief? You really need to at least specifically point out what you disagree with.

There's this little word "context." Part of responses. Try it sometime!

Doveaman · May 13, 2011

ToddNotTodd said:
Well... that's certainly weird...

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't allow any war in my heaven.

Well if you are going to let everyone into your heaven you might have to allow it since everyone, including war-mongers, will be saved in your heaven, including Bin Laden and Hitler, and Julius Caesar who said "I came, I saw, I conquered".

Unless you plan to force them into submission, taking away their freewill, and prove yourself not to be God by doing that.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

Freodin said:
So you are damned whether you like it or not? God throws you kicking and screaming into Hell?

It is sobering to recognize this is one aspect of the Gospel.

Freodin said:
There is no option of me simply letting you live your life as you did before.

But I wonder why... God seems perfectly capable of doing that.... here and now!

This is the difference: C's are in the former group, NC's in the latter.

Freodin · May 13, 2011

razeontherock said:
False. His analogy is MUCH more valid and to the point than either of our's.

Your undying love may be admirable to some, but ultimately unrequited love is to no avail. Yes, as a species we have that power, as part of G-d having given us dominion.

Well, as we were talking about a completely different point, somehow I cannot understand how his version can be "more to the point".

Must have to do something with the price of hammers, I guess.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

Hespera said:
He hasnt done a thing for me or anyone in 2000 years.

This isn't true in the least, and there are testimonies all over CF.

razeontherock · May 13, 2011

ToddNotTodd said:
Of course I wouldn't. I'd offer violent people an option. If they'd like to play nice with others, I'd give them compassion and then let them interact with others. If they'd rather stay the way they are, I'd give them their own version of heaven.

This is the Orthodox concept of hell.

Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Nechamya ben Avraham

Well-Known Member

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

Well-Known Member

Devout believer in a theologically different God

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency