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PaladinDoodler said:
Our earthly concepts of hell, our imagination of it etc, is not really that valid. We know what the bible has spoken and we understand what God has revealed to us individually about it.
Being eternally apart from God is hell.
It is the Holy Spirit (breath of life) that makes us a living soul.
The bible clearly says over and over that the soul is both created and can be destroyed/ die. There is nothing immortal about the soul in and of itself, we live by God and God alone. Be seperated from God and you die.
I don't know what else I can say right now.. (anyone want bible verses for any of this? I don't know where they are off hand but could surely find them upon request)
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linssue55
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[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Mat...10:28~~"Never be afraid of - to your advantage - those who can kill the body {this is an [/font][font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]order} but are not able to kill the soul {human and Satanic opposition}. Instead, fear Him {God - rest of verse describes His Power} . . . Who is able to destroy/ruin/'make void'/'bring to nothing' both soul and body in geenna/hell {Power of God to send the unbeliever to the lake of fire/hell}."[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: God will not send believers to hell. This is a reference to His Unlimited Power. Fear that you might miss some provision of His for you in heaven - as in Heb.4: 1.}[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Illustrations of God's power mentioned in verse 28 - Verses 29-31}[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]10:29-31~~"Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny and a half {assarion}? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will . . . 10:30~~ but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 10:31~~So do not be afraid . . . you are worth more than many/all sparrows."[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: An assarion was a small Roman copper coin worth one-sixteenth of a denarius or less than a half-hour's average wage - translated farthing in KJV. It was worth in today's money about a penny and a half. Sparrows were used as food and were the cheapest things sold at market.}[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: God will not send believers to hell. This is a reference to His Unlimited Power. Fear that you might miss some provision of His for you in heaven - as in Heb.4: 1.}[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Illustrations of God's power mentioned in verse 28 - Verses 29-31}[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]10:29-31~~"Aren't two sparrows sold for a penny and a half {assarion}? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will . . . 10:30~~ but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 10:31~~So do not be afraid . . . you are worth more than many/all sparrows."[/font]
[font=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: An assarion was a small Roman copper coin worth one-sixteenth of a denarius or less than a half-hour's average wage - translated farthing in KJV. It was worth in today's money about a penny and a half. Sparrows were used as food and were the cheapest things sold at market.}[/font]
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linssue55
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Though the body dies, and when it dies, the soul dies not; it survives the body, and not only lives after it, but lives for ever, it never dies: though the body without the soul is dead, yet the soul without the body is not dead; when the body returns to the earth and dust, from whence it sprung, the soul returns to God, the immediate author and giver of it: the body may be killed by men, but not the soul; no man has any power over that, none but God that made it: the soul is immortal, it is not capable of death, that is, in a natural and proper sense; it is capable of dying, in a figurative sense, a moral or spiritual death; which is brought on by sin; but this lies not in a deprivation of the powers and faculties of it; but of its moral rectitude, righteousness, and holiness; and it is capable of an eternal death, which is the destruction of it in hell; that is, not a destruction of its substance, but of its peace, joy, and happiness for ever.
When it is said, the soul is immortal, it must be understood, that it is so in its nature; and is not liable to death, either from any thing within itself or without it: but not that it has such an immortality as God himself has, "who only hath immortality;" he has it of himself: angels, and the souls of men, have their immortality of him, who has made them immaterial and immortal spirits; his immortality is without beginning, and any prior cause of it; theirs has a beginning from God, the first cause of them: his is independent; theirs depends on him, in whom they live, and move, and have their being. That the soul of man is immortal may be proved,
1. First, from the consideration of the soul itself, its original, nature, powers, and faculties.
1a. First, from the original of it; it is not of men; it is not "ex traduce," or by generation from parents, as has been proved elsewhere; "What is born of the flesh, is flesh;" and is not only carnal and sinful, but frail and mortal; "All flesh is grass," withering, decaying, and corruptible, as that is: but the spirit, or soul, is of God; it is the very breath of God; and has a similarity to him, particularly in immortality; "God breathed into man the breath of life, and he became a living soul," immortal and never dying (Gen. 2:7). Elihu says (Job 33:4), "The breath of the Almighty hath given me life," a life that will never end: as the first man was made, so are his posterity; his body was formed out of the dust; and then a living, immortal soul was breathed into it: so the body of every man is first formed, and then the soul is created in it; hence God is described, as he that "formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech. 12:1), and as God is the former of the souls of men, so he is the supporter of them; he "upholds their souls in lift;" as they have their being and their life from him, it is maintained by him; the souls of men are not dependent on their bodies, and therefore die not when they do: as they are independent of them in their operations, can think, reason, discourse, will, and nill without them; so they are in their being, and can exist and subsist without them. The most malicious and cruel persecutors can only kill the body; and after that "they have no more that they can do;" they cannot kill the soul (Luke 12:4), they cannot pursue that any further; that returns to God that gave it; he could, indeed, annihilate it, if he would; but that he does not do, neither the souls of good men, who, after death, are under the altar, calling for vengeance on their persecutors; nor the souls of bad men, who are in perpetual torment; their worm of conscience never dies, but is always torturing them; and the fire of divine wrath in them is never quenched, of which they are always sensible, and therefore must be immortal, and never die; or else that "fire," and its "burnings," would not be "everlasting," as they are said to be.
1b. Secondly, the immortality of the soul may be proved from the nature of the soul; which is,
1b1. Spiritual, of the same nature with angels, who are made "spirits," spiritual substances, and so die not; and such are the souls of men (Heb. 12:9, 23). Now as the souls of men are of the same nature with angels, and they die not, it maybe concluded that the souls of men are immortal, and die not (Ps. 104:4; Luke 20:36; 1 Cor. 2:11).
1b2. The soul of man is simple, unmixed, and uncompounded;[1] it is not composed of flesh, and blood, and bones, arteries, veins, &c. as the body; a spirit has none of these; not flesh, which may be torn to pieces; nor blood, which may be let out and shed, and life expire; nor bones, which may be broken, and be the occasion of death; nor arteries and veins, which may be cut through, and life cease: nor is it, as the body, made up of the basic elements, and capable of being resolved into the same again.
1b3. It is immaterial, it is not composed of matter and form; nor is it a material form, educed out of the power of matter, as the souls of brutes, which die, go downward, and return to the earth; matter is destitute of motion, and cannot move itself; whereas the soul of man, being moved, can move itself; as it appears by its thoughts, reasonings, and discourses; this was Platos argument[2] for the immortality of the soul,[3] that it can move the body at pleasure, or influence to any action, as to walk, sit, &c. Matter is incapable of thought, reasoning, and discoursing, willing and nilling, as the soul is. Matter is divisible, discernible, may be cut to pieces: not so the soul; it is out of the reach of every slaughtering weapon; the sharp arrow cannot penetrate into it, nor the glittering spear pierce it, nor the two edged sword divide it; none of these, nor any other of the same nature can touch it.
1b4. The soul has no contrary qualities, which, when one is predominant, threatens with destruction; it is neither hot nor cold; neither moist nor dry; neither hard nor tender: it has no heat in it, which may, as in the body, be increased to such a degree, as in burning fevers, to dry it up like a potsherd, and consume it: nor such moisture, which may rise, abound, and overflow it, as in a dropsy, and drown the fabric: nor has it any such tender part which will not bear a blow, but be fatal to it: nor so hard as not to bend, and become pliable to proper uses, and endanger the machine.
1b5. The soul of man is made after the image, and in the likeness of God, which chiefly consists in that; it bears a resemblance to the divine nature, being the breath of God; it has a likeness to him, and particularly in its immortality; and this is given by Alemaeon[4] as an argument of it; and so Plato,[5] the soul is most like to that which is divine, immortal, intelligible, uniform, indissoluble, and always the same.
1c. Thirdly, the immortality of the soul may be proved from the powers and faculties of it, its understanding and will.
1c1. Its understanding. "There is a spirit," or soul, "in man," as Elihu says (Job 32:8), "And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding;" an intellectual power and faculty of understanding things, which distinguishes men from the brutes that perish, the horse, the mule, &c. which have no understanding; it is by this God teaches men more than the beasts of the earth, and makes them wiser than the fowls of heaven (Ps. 32:9; Job 35:11).
When it is said, the soul is immortal, it must be understood, that it is so in its nature; and is not liable to death, either from any thing within itself or without it: but not that it has such an immortality as God himself has, "who only hath immortality;" he has it of himself: angels, and the souls of men, have their immortality of him, who has made them immaterial and immortal spirits; his immortality is without beginning, and any prior cause of it; theirs has a beginning from God, the first cause of them: his is independent; theirs depends on him, in whom they live, and move, and have their being. That the soul of man is immortal may be proved,
1. First, from the consideration of the soul itself, its original, nature, powers, and faculties.
1a. First, from the original of it; it is not of men; it is not "ex traduce," or by generation from parents, as has been proved elsewhere; "What is born of the flesh, is flesh;" and is not only carnal and sinful, but frail and mortal; "All flesh is grass," withering, decaying, and corruptible, as that is: but the spirit, or soul, is of God; it is the very breath of God; and has a similarity to him, particularly in immortality; "God breathed into man the breath of life, and he became a living soul," immortal and never dying (Gen. 2:7). Elihu says (Job 33:4), "The breath of the Almighty hath given me life," a life that will never end: as the first man was made, so are his posterity; his body was formed out of the dust; and then a living, immortal soul was breathed into it: so the body of every man is first formed, and then the soul is created in it; hence God is described, as he that "formeth the spirit of man within him" (Zech. 12:1), and as God is the former of the souls of men, so he is the supporter of them; he "upholds their souls in lift;" as they have their being and their life from him, it is maintained by him; the souls of men are not dependent on their bodies, and therefore die not when they do: as they are independent of them in their operations, can think, reason, discourse, will, and nill without them; so they are in their being, and can exist and subsist without them. The most malicious and cruel persecutors can only kill the body; and after that "they have no more that they can do;" they cannot kill the soul (Luke 12:4), they cannot pursue that any further; that returns to God that gave it; he could, indeed, annihilate it, if he would; but that he does not do, neither the souls of good men, who, after death, are under the altar, calling for vengeance on their persecutors; nor the souls of bad men, who are in perpetual torment; their worm of conscience never dies, but is always torturing them; and the fire of divine wrath in them is never quenched, of which they are always sensible, and therefore must be immortal, and never die; or else that "fire," and its "burnings," would not be "everlasting," as they are said to be.
1b. Secondly, the immortality of the soul may be proved from the nature of the soul; which is,
1b1. Spiritual, of the same nature with angels, who are made "spirits," spiritual substances, and so die not; and such are the souls of men (Heb. 12:9, 23). Now as the souls of men are of the same nature with angels, and they die not, it maybe concluded that the souls of men are immortal, and die not (Ps. 104:4; Luke 20:36; 1 Cor. 2:11).
1b2. The soul of man is simple, unmixed, and uncompounded;[1] it is not composed of flesh, and blood, and bones, arteries, veins, &c. as the body; a spirit has none of these; not flesh, which may be torn to pieces; nor blood, which may be let out and shed, and life expire; nor bones, which may be broken, and be the occasion of death; nor arteries and veins, which may be cut through, and life cease: nor is it, as the body, made up of the basic elements, and capable of being resolved into the same again.
1b3. It is immaterial, it is not composed of matter and form; nor is it a material form, educed out of the power of matter, as the souls of brutes, which die, go downward, and return to the earth; matter is destitute of motion, and cannot move itself; whereas the soul of man, being moved, can move itself; as it appears by its thoughts, reasonings, and discourses; this was Platos argument[2] for the immortality of the soul,[3] that it can move the body at pleasure, or influence to any action, as to walk, sit, &c. Matter is incapable of thought, reasoning, and discoursing, willing and nilling, as the soul is. Matter is divisible, discernible, may be cut to pieces: not so the soul; it is out of the reach of every slaughtering weapon; the sharp arrow cannot penetrate into it, nor the glittering spear pierce it, nor the two edged sword divide it; none of these, nor any other of the same nature can touch it.
1b4. The soul has no contrary qualities, which, when one is predominant, threatens with destruction; it is neither hot nor cold; neither moist nor dry; neither hard nor tender: it has no heat in it, which may, as in the body, be increased to such a degree, as in burning fevers, to dry it up like a potsherd, and consume it: nor such moisture, which may rise, abound, and overflow it, as in a dropsy, and drown the fabric: nor has it any such tender part which will not bear a blow, but be fatal to it: nor so hard as not to bend, and become pliable to proper uses, and endanger the machine.
1b5. The soul of man is made after the image, and in the likeness of God, which chiefly consists in that; it bears a resemblance to the divine nature, being the breath of God; it has a likeness to him, and particularly in its immortality; and this is given by Alemaeon[4] as an argument of it; and so Plato,[5] the soul is most like to that which is divine, immortal, intelligible, uniform, indissoluble, and always the same.
1c. Thirdly, the immortality of the soul may be proved from the powers and faculties of it, its understanding and will.
1c1. Its understanding. "There is a spirit," or soul, "in man," as Elihu says (Job 32:8), "And the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding;" an intellectual power and faculty of understanding things, which distinguishes men from the brutes that perish, the horse, the mule, &c. which have no understanding; it is by this God teaches men more than the beasts of the earth, and makes them wiser than the fowls of heaven (Ps. 32:9; Job 35:11).
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Tricia4Jesus
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No they don't. Unless of course what they want is to burn in hell for all eternity.
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*Starlight*
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Mankind is always judging outward appearances, he is a fool and a hypocrite.
God, however, He judges the heart. And in Him I trust for His judgements are true.
I have a friend who is "atheist", yes I have two friends who are "atheists".
One of them works for me: his name is David. I will tell you I have never had a better employee. He serves ME, my interests, he looks out for what is good for me. Loyal, honest (he has access to my money) and hard working, I will sometimes introduce him to a customer: This is David, my good and trustworthy servant. David and I talk about God all day long when we work. God is the subject we almost always talk about, because anything relates to God.
My other friend is Richard. He is a rather noble fellow who practices good deeds often. Of course him and I talk about God all the time as well. Real conversations, as with David, REAL conversations about REAL life because God is True. Once, when he was helping me out with a job because I was short staffed (for a rate half his regular pay, but generous none-the-less): I was loading gear into the house, there was a lady shoveling her driveway next door (older lady). By the time I had one load into the house I saw him shoveling her driveway for her. Later, curious as to his intent I asked: Why did you do that? He answered that it was because looked like she could use help. I asked again: so why then help just because she could use it? He answered: Because it was the right thing to do.
In the hearts of both of these friends of mine, I recognize something lovely, it is why I love them. They do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Neither of them take the threat of heaven or hell too seriously, nor do I ever pose to judge them or threaten them myself as other "Christians" have done in past with them.
You see: My two friends are two of the most Christian people I know. They do nothing in hope of heavenly reward or avoidance of hell. They don't believe in a God that threatens them with that to make them do good, they do good because it is good. I cannot judge them and say they are saved or unsaved, because that is up to God. I don't need to judge them and say they are saved or unsaved, because God is Good, in Him I trust.
If you can see: God is Good. God is Truth. That both my good servant David and noble friend Richard serve what is truely good. They care about what is True. They both are honest enough to confess their sins and short-comings, they have consciences etc (the Law in their hearts); they are both godly enough not to believe any man who wishes to condemn them based on religion either. What is in their hearts is what is good, and that is what they follow. They believe in True Love (biblically defined) for no rhyme or reason, but that they have faith in it (both are extremely critical thinkers, they know there is no proof of such beyound what I/they can bring to doubt)
They will get what they want. I still have not judged them, but I love them. They love me. And they both offer me cups of water because I belong to Christ. I'm sorry for those who judge others, for in that they condemn themselves. I'm sorry for those who can't see past the outside of a man, for their is beauty when God melts someones heart.
Thanks be to God.
God, however, He judges the heart. And in Him I trust for His judgements are true.
Tricia4Jesus said:
I have a friend who is "atheist", yes I have two friends who are "atheists".
One of them works for me: his name is David. I will tell you I have never had a better employee. He serves ME, my interests, he looks out for what is good for me. Loyal, honest (he has access to my money) and hard working, I will sometimes introduce him to a customer: This is David, my good and trustworthy servant. David and I talk about God all day long when we work. God is the subject we almost always talk about, because anything relates to God.
My other friend is Richard. He is a rather noble fellow who practices good deeds often. Of course him and I talk about God all the time as well. Real conversations, as with David, REAL conversations about REAL life because God is True. Once, when he was helping me out with a job because I was short staffed (for a rate half his regular pay, but generous none-the-less): I was loading gear into the house, there was a lady shoveling her driveway next door (older lady). By the time I had one load into the house I saw him shoveling her driveway for her. Later, curious as to his intent I asked: Why did you do that? He answered that it was because looked like she could use help. I asked again: so why then help just because she could use it? He answered: Because it was the right thing to do.
In the hearts of both of these friends of mine, I recognize something lovely, it is why I love them. They do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. Neither of them take the threat of heaven or hell too seriously, nor do I ever pose to judge them or threaten them myself as other "Christians" have done in past with them.
You see: My two friends are two of the most Christian people I know. They do nothing in hope of heavenly reward or avoidance of hell. They don't believe in a God that threatens them with that to make them do good, they do good because it is good. I cannot judge them and say they are saved or unsaved, because that is up to God. I don't need to judge them and say they are saved or unsaved, because God is Good, in Him I trust.
If you can see: God is Good. God is Truth. That both my good servant David and noble friend Richard serve what is truely good. They care about what is True. They both are honest enough to confess their sins and short-comings, they have consciences etc (the Law in their hearts); they are both godly enough not to believe any man who wishes to condemn them based on religion either. What is in their hearts is what is good, and that is what they follow. They believe in True Love (biblically defined) for no rhyme or reason, but that they have faith in it (both are extremely critical thinkers, they know there is no proof of such beyound what I/they can bring to doubt)
They will get what they want. I still have not judged them, but I love them. They love me. And they both offer me cups of water because I belong to Christ. I'm sorry for those who judge others, for in that they condemn themselves. I'm sorry for those who can't see past the outside of a man, for their is beauty when God melts someones heart.
Thanks be to God.
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ThirdAngel
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Whoa, now you take one at a time. 
I sent you a salvation package, 40 things. We inherit eternal life a the point of salvation....many, many verses......."The soul that sins shall die." .....this is spiritual death, carnal, out of fellowship.
I'm not questioning your understanding of salvation. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. I am on the same page with you there. But these verses do do not say that it is refering to spiritual death. Isa. 41:12 say that the wicked will be "as nothing, as a non-existant thing." I have not addressed your post about Matt. 10:28, yet, but it definately says that the soul can be DESTROYED. This does not imply some kind of spiritual death alone.
Do they use Isosgogics? with this interpretation?, is it Exegesis from the original language, NOT from the Hebrew of today?
It is merely a matter of looking to see how a word such as "soul" (nephesh) is used repeatedly contextually in scripture. I challenge you to look up every instance of "nephesh" and its Greek equivalent "Psuche," and see if you can find any instance where it is used to refer to an entity separate from the body. You can't, I've already done the study. The soul is nothing more than a body bestowed with the the breath of God. A soul is the whole person, body mind and spirit.
He did not breath the breath of life into animals. This is apples and oranges.
If God did not breath the breath of life into animals, then why are they termed a "nephesh" just like Adam. This is not opinion, it is a fact that can be proven with a concordance by anyone who knows how to use a dictionary. You don't need a degree in theology to see it for yourself. Animals are also Nephesh and it can be proven by simply looking up the instances where the bible uses the word. There will be animals in the new earth as well. I think it is safe to assume they will have been give immortality as well. (The lion and the lamb shall lie down together). Animals are not given the same abilities to reason as we are, nor are they required to choose salvation, but they are nonetheless nephesh'. I don't think they will be "saved" as we are, but perhaps recreated.
>"Nowhere in scripture can you find an example of a soul being spoken of as being immortal."<
Refer to salvation package, and other's I have sent.
I would prefer to refer to the bible. Your package also showed a state of torture for the unsaved at "the center of the earth." There is nothing in the bible about that. We should not form our theology around man made packages.
Ok, now do you agree that the resurrection body cannot die? If you do (I hope you do), then why aren't these men walking the earth right now? The only person that has ever been resurrected is the Lord, for the resurrection body is not subject to death, once it is given by the Lord, it can never die.
Yes, our glorified bodies will never die. But we will have bodies in heaven. We will not be dissembodied spirits. The new earth will be inhabited by people as real and as sinless as Adam and Eve were. But our change occurs when Christ comes for us. That is when this mortal shall put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-54). Immortality is a gift of God. It is not something that we are born with. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death. The wages of sin is death (eternal death), but the gift of God is eternal life (Rom. 6:23). The men who have been resurrected are the only humans in heaven right now. John the revelator saw "24 elders" during his vision of the throne room of heaven. Rev. 4:4
There will be 2 exceptions, during the tribulation, Moses, and Elijah (now in heaven with the Lord) will NOT recieve their resurrection bodies at the time of the rapture, instead they will be "Resussitated" to come back during the tribulation, to witness to the world. They will be killed, by the anti-christ. Now, if they (Moses) was now resurrected, how could he die during the tribulation?,
Now you are going off into a whole new area of theology. I'm not ready to get into that yet. But Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with Jesus while Peter, John and James were with Him. The bible testifies that Elijah and Enoch were taken alive. Moses was taken after death. We can assume he was resurrected because he appeared on the mount with Elijah.
how could he die again?. He couldn't. The point is after their death's during the tribulation, they will be on display before the world for 3 day's, and the end of the 3 day's, the Lord Resurrects (never to die again) them, all eye's will see. Just as the Lord's body cannot ever die again, because of the resurrection, WE will recieve the same body. Like Lazarus, he was "resussitated" (in the original), but then later died again, for the last time. If he had recieved his resurrection body then, he would be walking around amongst us right now, a 2,000 year old man. He is now in heaven with the Lord, awaiting his resurrection body as the dead in christ, at the time of the rapture.
Your speculation is dependant upon the rature theory being sound doctrine. I am not ready to go off on that tangent yet, but you should know by now that there are differences of opinion about the validity of that doctrine. If the rapture theory is to be held as true then we have to go into an extensive discussion about how to explain waway texts that do not agree with it, and I think our plate is full enough right now. Plus, the issues we are discussing right now about the nature of the human soul can help answer many other questions about various doctrines. One rule of thumb I hold to, is that texts (such as Revelation) which obviously make use of symbolic language, must be understood in light of texts that are not symbolic (black and white truths, plain statements of fact).
we believers have eternal life, at physical death, our soul, and spirit to go be with the Lord, not lying dead in coffins awaiting the resurrection. I sent info on this.
When we die, the very next thing we will see is the Lord (or His judgment). There will not be any awareness of the time spent in the grave. But in the grave we shall be. Death will have no conscious thought, no "waiting" to be worried about. It is a "sleep." Just as a deep sleep, the morning comes without any recollection of the time spent unconscious.
Food for thought: Where was Lazarus for 4 days before Jesus rose him out of the grave? If he was in paradise, then was Jesus doing him a favor by returning him to this sinful world, only to die again? Jesus said "Lazarus SLEEPS." Why do we need somehow make that mean something other than it was intended to mean; Especially when (as I said) the bible uses the term "sleep" for death 52 times?
Please forgive my slow responses. But as you can see this is a very complex topic requiring a lot of work responding. I will get back to you soon, so don't think I am neglecting you. Have a great day, and remember, my satnce on this does not in any way negate the value of our heavenly reward. Eternal life is just as real to me as it is to you, and so is His salvation that makes it possible.
I sent you a salvation package, 40 things. We inherit eternal life a the point of salvation....many, many verses......."The soul that sins shall die." .....this is spiritual death, carnal, out of fellowship.I'm not questioning your understanding of salvation. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. I am on the same page with you there. But these verses do do not say that it is refering to spiritual death. Isa. 41:12 say that the wicked will be "as nothing, as a non-existant thing." I have not addressed your post about Matt. 10:28, yet, but it definately says that the soul can be DESTROYED. This does not imply some kind of spiritual death alone.
Do they use Isosgogics? with this interpretation?, is it Exegesis from the original language, NOT from the Hebrew of today?
It is merely a matter of looking to see how a word such as "soul" (nephesh) is used repeatedly contextually in scripture. I challenge you to look up every instance of "nephesh" and its Greek equivalent "Psuche," and see if you can find any instance where it is used to refer to an entity separate from the body. You can't, I've already done the study. The soul is nothing more than a body bestowed with the the breath of God. A soul is the whole person, body mind and spirit.
He did not breath the breath of life into animals. This is apples and oranges.
If God did not breath the breath of life into animals, then why are they termed a "nephesh" just like Adam. This is not opinion, it is a fact that can be proven with a concordance by anyone who knows how to use a dictionary. You don't need a degree in theology to see it for yourself. Animals are also Nephesh and it can be proven by simply looking up the instances where the bible uses the word. There will be animals in the new earth as well. I think it is safe to assume they will have been give immortality as well. (The lion and the lamb shall lie down together). Animals are not given the same abilities to reason as we are, nor are they required to choose salvation, but they are nonetheless nephesh'. I don't think they will be "saved" as we are, but perhaps recreated.
>"Nowhere in scripture can you find an example of a soul being spoken of as being immortal."<
Refer to salvation package, and other's I have sent.
I would prefer to refer to the bible. Your package also showed a state of torture for the unsaved at "the center of the earth." There is nothing in the bible about that. We should not form our theology around man made packages.
Ok, now do you agree that the resurrection body cannot die? If you do (I hope you do), then why aren't these men walking the earth right now? The only person that has ever been resurrected is the Lord, for the resurrection body is not subject to death, once it is given by the Lord, it can never die.
Yes, our glorified bodies will never die. But we will have bodies in heaven. We will not be dissembodied spirits. The new earth will be inhabited by people as real and as sinless as Adam and Eve were. But our change occurs when Christ comes for us. That is when this mortal shall put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-54). Immortality is a gift of God. It is not something that we are born with. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death. The wages of sin is death (eternal death), but the gift of God is eternal life (Rom. 6:23). The men who have been resurrected are the only humans in heaven right now. John the revelator saw "24 elders" during his vision of the throne room of heaven. Rev. 4:4
There will be 2 exceptions, during the tribulation, Moses, and Elijah (now in heaven with the Lord) will NOT recieve their resurrection bodies at the time of the rapture, instead they will be "Resussitated" to come back during the tribulation, to witness to the world. They will be killed, by the anti-christ. Now, if they (Moses) was now resurrected, how could he die during the tribulation?,
Now you are going off into a whole new area of theology. I'm not ready to get into that yet. But Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with Jesus while Peter, John and James were with Him. The bible testifies that Elijah and Enoch were taken alive. Moses was taken after death. We can assume he was resurrected because he appeared on the mount with Elijah.
how could he die again?. He couldn't. The point is after their death's during the tribulation, they will be on display before the world for 3 day's, and the end of the 3 day's, the Lord Resurrects (never to die again) them, all eye's will see. Just as the Lord's body cannot ever die again, because of the resurrection, WE will recieve the same body. Like Lazarus, he was "resussitated" (in the original), but then later died again, for the last time. If he had recieved his resurrection body then, he would be walking around amongst us right now, a 2,000 year old man. He is now in heaven with the Lord, awaiting his resurrection body as the dead in christ, at the time of the rapture.
Your speculation is dependant upon the rature theory being sound doctrine. I am not ready to go off on that tangent yet, but you should know by now that there are differences of opinion about the validity of that doctrine. If the rapture theory is to be held as true then we have to go into an extensive discussion about how to explain waway texts that do not agree with it, and I think our plate is full enough right now. Plus, the issues we are discussing right now about the nature of the human soul can help answer many other questions about various doctrines. One rule of thumb I hold to, is that texts (such as Revelation) which obviously make use of symbolic language, must be understood in light of texts that are not symbolic (black and white truths, plain statements of fact).
we believers have eternal life, at physical death, our soul, and spirit to go be with the Lord, not lying dead in coffins awaiting the resurrection. I sent info on this.
When we die, the very next thing we will see is the Lord (or His judgment). There will not be any awareness of the time spent in the grave. But in the grave we shall be. Death will have no conscious thought, no "waiting" to be worried about. It is a "sleep." Just as a deep sleep, the morning comes without any recollection of the time spent unconscious.
Food for thought: Where was Lazarus for 4 days before Jesus rose him out of the grave? If he was in paradise, then was Jesus doing him a favor by returning him to this sinful world, only to die again? Jesus said "Lazarus SLEEPS." Why do we need somehow make that mean something other than it was intended to mean; Especially when (as I said) the bible uses the term "sleep" for death 52 times?
Please forgive my slow responses. But as you can see this is a very complex topic requiring a lot of work responding. I will get back to you soon, so don't think I am neglecting you. Have a great day, and remember, my satnce on this does not in any way negate the value of our heavenly reward. Eternal life is just as real to me as it is to you, and so is His salvation that makes it possible.
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Caliban said:I spoke to an atheist who said that when he dies he will just rot in the ground and thats it, nothing more, no conscience, no nothing.
When God destroys those in the lake of fire the same thing happens, they just blink out of existence.
So whats with all the torture in between these two points when in fact these people never believed in Satan or God, so really there wish is to go to the lake of fire, non-existence. Why not just put them in the lake straight away? it is supplying them with what they wanted, is the torture part just a way of saying "nah nah see your wrong and i'm right
Don't let them fool you. They know perfectly well what they believe and what they're doing. We all have the free will to either choose God or Satan. And let us all understand that there is absolutely no such thing as indecision/'in-between athiesm and chrisiantiy'. Either you choose or don't choose at all; either way, you've made a choice.
No, we don't just blink out of existence. If that were true, then Jesus wouldn't have felt the need to die for us.
It's either spending eternity with God or spending eternity in torment and gnashing of teeth, and that is the final decision made by GOD. There's no in between or other way.
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ThirdAngel
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If the angels don't know where Moses was buried, then why this verse?linssue55 said:
Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke you! Jude 9
If Moses had not been resurrected, then why these verses?
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matt. 17:1-3
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ThirdAngel
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So because all human life is sacred, God will allow his sacred creations to be tortured endlessly without mercy for triillions and bazillions of years for what was done in the span of a couple or few decades?PaladinDoodler said:
This logic escapes me.
The soul who sins shall die... For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies, says the Lord GOD. Therefore turn and live! Ezekiel 18:20, 32
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ThirdAngel
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[/font]linssue55 said:
True. But it does say that the unsaved will be "destroyed." It does not say they will be tortured, nor does it say that they will continue to exist.
DESTROY: Strongs Greek #622- Apollumi: To destroy, to put an end to, to kill, to perish
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH but have everlasting life. John 3:16
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linssue55
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Ok, I can see where this is going, and I have been there, and done that. This all a matter of faith, and what is believed by whos' ever interpretation. I have been taught for 32 years the corrected translations from the originals using the things I have mentioned, and it is the truth. Your translations do not use the isogogics, and coorrect Exegisis, with the proper tenses, fixes, moods, verbs, lingusitcs, hermernutics, syntex, etc, etc, etc. I found my right pastor teacher many years ago, and there is no way I will "EVER" back down from my teachings. They are correct, in ALL senses of the corrected interpetation of the word.ThirdAngel said:Whoa, now you take one at a time.
I'm not questioning your understanding of salvation. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. I am on the same page with you there. But these verses do do not say that it is refering to spiritual death. Isa. 41:12 say that the wicked will be "as nothing, as a non-existant thing." I have not addressed your post about Matt. 10:28, yet, but it definately says that the soul can be DESTROYED. This does not imply some kind of spiritual death alone.
Do they use Isosgogics? with this interpretation?, is it Exegesis from the original language, NOT from the Hebrew of today?
It is merely a matter of looking to see how a word such as "soul" (nephesh) is used repeatedly contextually in scripture. I challenge you to look up every instance of "nephesh" and its Greek equivalent "Psuche," and see if you can find any instance where it is used to refer to an entity separate from the body. You can't, I've already done the study. The soul is nothing more than a body bestowed with the the breath of God. A soul is the whole person, body mind and spirit.
He did not breath the breath of life into animals. This is apples and oranges.
If God did not breath the breath of life into animals, then why are they termed a "nephesh" just like Adam. This is not opinion, it is a fact that can be proven with a concordance by anyone who knows how to use a dictionary. You don't need a degree in theology to see it for yourself. Animals are also Nephesh and it can be proven by simply looking up the instances where the bible uses the word. There will be animals in the new earth as well. I think it is safe to assume they will have been give immortality as well. (The lion and the lamb shall lie down together). Animals are not given the same abilities to reason as we are, nor are they required to choose salvation, but they are nonetheless nephesh'. I don't think they will be "saved" as we are, but perhaps recreated.
>"Nowhere in scripture can you find an example of a soul being spoken of as being immortal."<
Refer to salvation package, and other's I have sent.
I would prefer to refer to the bible. Your package also showed a state of torture for the unsaved at "the center of the earth." There is nothing in the bible about that. We should not form our theology around man made packages.
Ok, now do you agree that the resurrection body cannot die? If you do (I hope you do), then why aren't these men walking the earth right now? The only person that has ever been resurrected is the Lord, for the resurrection body is not subject to death, once it is given by the Lord, it can never die.
Yes, our glorified bodies will never die. But we will have bodies in heaven. We will not be dissembodied spirits. The new earth will be inhabited by people as real and as sinless as Adam and Eve were. But our change occurs when Christ comes for us. That is when this mortal shall put on immortality (1 Cor. 15:51-54). Immortality is a gift of God. It is not something that we are born with. The opposite of eternal life is eternal death. The wages of sin is death (eternal death), but the gift of God is eternal life (Rom. 6:23). The men who have been resurrected are the only humans in heaven right now. John the revelator saw "24 elders" during his vision of the throne room of heaven. Rev. 4:4
There will be 2 exceptions, during the tribulation, Moses, and Elijah (now in heaven with the Lord) will NOT recieve their resurrection bodies at the time of the rapture, instead they will be "Resussitated" to come back during the tribulation, to witness to the world. They will be killed, by the anti-christ. Now, if they (Moses) was now resurrected, how could he die during the tribulation?,
Now you are going off into a whole new area of theology. I'm not ready to get into that yet. But Moses and Elijah appeared on the mount with Jesus while Peter, John and James were with Him. The bible testifies that Elijah and Enoch were taken alive. Moses was taken after death. We can assume he was resurrected because he appeared on the mount with Elijah.
how could he die again?. He couldn't. The point is after their death's during the tribulation, they will be on display before the world for 3 day's, and the end of the 3 day's, the Lord Resurrects (never to die again) them, all eye's will see. Just as the Lord's body cannot ever die again, because of the resurrection, WE will recieve the same body. Like Lazarus, he was "resussitated" (in the original), but then later died again, for the last time. If he had recieved his resurrection body then, he would be walking around amongst us right now, a 2,000 year old man. He is now in heaven with the Lord, awaiting his resurrection body as the dead in christ, at the time of the rapture.
Your speculation is dependant upon the rature theory being sound doctrine. I am not ready to go off on that tangent yet, but you should know by now that there are differences of opinion about the validity of that doctrine. If the rapture theory is to be held as true then we have to go into an extensive discussion about how to explain waway texts that do not agree with it, and I think our plate is full enough right now. Plus, the issues we are discussing right now about the nature of the human soul can help answer many other questions about various doctrines. One rule of thumb I hold to, is that texts (such as Revelation) which obviously make use of symbolic language, must be understood in light of texts that are not symbolic (black and white truths, plain statements of fact).
we believers have eternal life, at physical death, our soul, and spirit to go be with the Lord, not lying dead in coffins awaiting the resurrection. I sent info on this.
When we die, the very next thing we will see is the Lord (or His judgment). There will not be any awareness of the time spent in the grave. But in the grave we shall be. Death will have no conscious thought, no "waiting" to be worried about. It is a "sleep." Just as a deep sleep, the morning comes without any recollection of the time spent unconscious.
Food for thought: Where was Lazarus for 4 days before Jesus rose him out of the grave? If he was in paradise, then was Jesus doing him a favor by returning him to this sinful world, only to die again? Jesus said "Lazarus SLEEPS." Why do we need somehow make that mean something other than it was intended to mean; Especially when (as I said) the bible uses the term "sleep" for death 52 times?
Please forgive my slow responses. But as you can see this is a very complex topic requiring a lot of work responding. I will get back to you soon, so don't think I am neglecting you. Have a great day, and remember, my satnce on this does not in any way negate the value of our heavenly reward. Eternal life is just as real to me as it is to you, and so is His salvation that makes it possible.
When you PM'd me to join in, I didn't think you wanted someone to argue with, instead I thought you wanted someone to give the truth on the subject of this thread. But now I see I was wrong (being naive again). I have been down this road many too times, and I WILL NOT GO THERE AGAIN!!! You have your beliefs, and I will always have mine. Your self interpretations of the written word in wrong, are wrong (if only you could understand). "Nashamah", is the breath of life, and you are wrong about animals, and the interpretations vastly incorrect.
So let's just leave it where it is right now, for I can give you NOTHING, for you refuse to take the Gnosis, and transfer it into Epignosis. This is your right, God gave you free will to choose, and I have no right to tell you otherwise. But it is truly sad when believers really don't want to understand the full realm of bible doctrine, "AS IT WAS WRITTEN". I am quite sure you are a very nice person, and I would like to keep us at least talking on occasions, but CLEARLY we do not believe the same, and BEFORE it get's nasty, I am going to pull the plug right now, for if you can't see the issue from all of the verses I have posted, well then certainly, more verses are not going to do the trick either. I just wished you would have opened your heart to the true word. The understanding of what I have been taught from bible doctrine throughout the years has been phenominal (sp), I wanted to share. But alas, nothing new to the forum.
I wish you well, and may God bless.
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C
Caliban
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Why did you do that when someone comes with a question, you didnt have to come to this thread and put that, are you sure you should be at the christian forum? If someone asks you something about God do you just yawn....that was pointless and a little upsetting!!!! Please don't respond to any of my threads again.
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ThirdAngel
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[/font]linssue55 said:
There is no evidence to assume that these were OT saints. Paul referred to the apostolic era believers as saints several times.
The transfer of these saints to "the third heaven" is a stretch of the imagination and an assumption, although I do believe that they may very well have been (possibly, also an assumption on my part) taken with Jesus into heaven when He ascended. There has to be a reason for the 24 elders of revelation being in heaven.
If we go to heaven before the resurrection, then why did God bother taking Moses, Elijah and Enoch in bodily form?
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ThirdAngel
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I think you misread me linssue55. I invited you to this discussion because I felt that you are someone who would rely on the bible as a final authority. I am engaging in this discussion because it is a valid point to make, and we are right to study the word with an open mind.linssue55 said:
If your interpretation is correct, then you have to assume that the scriptures as we have them in our english translations are wrong. I showed you things that can easily be verified using a concordance.
Your use of terms such as isogogics, and exegisis can befuddle the common man. If you cannot rely on the a bible concordance to find the meaning of Hebrew and Greek words and find the context in which they are used, then you basically are requiring a person to have a PhD in theology just to understand the word.
I am not trying to argue with you. But I do come to sites like this in order to offer my perspective on the bible.
But if you do not wish to indulge me in this discussion, that is your right. I am not going to try to push an agenda on you.
God be with you.
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ThirdAngel said:
All I have to say (because of the hoard of false teachings I've heard here from someone... not the person I am responding to) is this:
When the little children were coming to Jesus the diciples tried to stop them (everyone recal that?). Jesus REBUKED them, and said "Forbid them not, for such is the kingdom of God" he went on "Verily verily, I say unto you, if you do not accept the kingdom of God as one of these little children, you will surely never enter it" (loose quotes)
So then, if the little children are able to hear, recieve and uphold the word of God. It could not possibly be true that believing or knowing the word requires intellegence. But rather, the notion is a blasphemy right from the start.
It is not intellectual knowledge that will save us. For even Satan knows about Christ, and even Satan believes what he knows about Christ: Satan has intellectual belief and knowledge of Christ.
God does not judge us based on our level of intellectual understanding or knowledge, he judges us by our HEARTS. It is in our hearts which we recieve the word, it is in our hearts which we understand and know: that is faith.
Please consider carefully what I say, for unlike intellectual teachers (of which I can get like often enough), I do not give you "my teachings" as authoritive, all I recommend it is look to God. We have one teacher: Our Father in heaven.
Cheers.
P.S., I realize this has nothing to do with the post I am apparantly responding to
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linssue55
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No one ever has or ever will go to heaven in their bodily (physical body) form (exception, Jesus Christ in His resurrection body), and it does not state this in the bible any where that they did. Only our soul and spirit go to be with the Lord while we await our resurrection bodies.ThirdAngel said:
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Dragons87 said:
To furthur on this, recall when Christ was on the mount of Olives? I'm refering to the time when He went to pray, and there was Moses and Elijah talking with Him.
God is not the God of the dead, but of the living!!
Someone also said on here that we die and then sleep, without being able to be woken up (might have been a bible verse?). Samuel was woken up by Saul who used a medium to talk to him after he died. Of course Samuel was pretty choked about the deal
I don't see how they both work, something must be missing from the post/ verse I saw.
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