Atheists arguing morality?

[NPH]

I'll make the OP's day I'm an atheist who (with the exception of Buddhism) thoroughly loathes religion. I detest it's existence and dream of a world without religions.

Now, of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with any putative god. I can't hate/loathe/detest/despise anything that I do not recognize as existing But the religions that sprout up based on these mythical beings? Those I can absolutely despise. Just like a captialist can despise communism and vice versa, they're all just philosophical constructs.

And FWIW, my detestation came well after my atheism. It wasn't a result of atheism but rather a result of the actions of theists directed by their religions.

As for being here, it is part of the time for learning, discussion and understanding. The only time it becomes for mocking entertainment is when the theist puts forth something worthy of such derision.

While you may find the atheist's existence (and your own, without a deity) to be meaningless, I find quite enough meaning on a daily basis. As a single father raising two young children by himself I do not think I could find anything (including a fantastical realm after death) to be any more meaningful than this one task.

 

[Patashu]

Am I the only person that sees the irony in this?

Yes.

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]read>

EDIT: Huh, why'd it do that?

 

[Morcova]

Say hello to the language filter.

 

[YDOAPS]

I hate it when people come with the "Atheists are EVIL" arguments. It really does make you look ignorant, and in some cases, psychotic. Let's take a look at one of the most common forms:
"You're an Atheist; you believe you have no one to which you are accountable in the afterlife. Therefore, you believe you have no eternal consequences for your actions. In your mind, you can rape, murder, steal, and do any horrible act with no ill effects! You are evil."
Most often, it sounds like "The only reason I don't steal, rape, and murder is that God is going to send me to Hell. You don't believe in God, so you must be EVIL!!!!!"
One main problem with both versions is about works. They take faith out of the picture and portray Christianity as saying you get to Heaven based on how well you live your life.
Another problem with these arguments is that there ARE consequences! If someone murders someone else, they go to prison. These may not be eternal consequences, but most Atheists don't believe in an afterlife; they believe that this life is all they have. Thus, spending the rest of it in prison might as well be an eternal sentence in their point of view.
There is an especially bad problem with the second variation. It makes it look like you are a sociopath. If the ONLY reason you refrain from murder is to avoid eternal damnation, then YOU are the one with no morals and your argument is humorous.
This argument is extremely flawed and paints a bad picture of Christianity; please stop using it.

 

[feral]

Am I the only person that sees the irony in this? They reject their own Creator, his word, and Christ, yet somehow they feel that their own standards of morality are above all others. They wont even recognize their own sins, but somehow they think they can dictate what true morality is. Fascinating stuff.

A Muslim would say you are ignorant of the truth of the Qur'an, that you deny the moral teachings of Muhammed and that because you live in a society where alcohol consumption and bikinis are the norm, you are in no position to discuss morality. I'm sure it's easy for you to see this belief as mere opinion, not truth. Mere opinion, not truth, is also the way I see your understanding of morality. I find it frightening that you would claim to know of morality while considering a book full of murder, rape, genocide, torture, betrayal and violence the ultimate authority of morality.

I happen to find a godless morality more authentic than a religious one. A non-religious person does good because it is good, while some religious people seem to need a book to force them to do good, as though without it they would experience moral anarchy. Doing good because someone in authority forced you do doesn't strike me as very meaningful at all. That doesn't mean I despise Christians. I think that if someone finds solace and comfort in the Bible, and if they like the idea of a heaven and someone watching over them reassuring, that's fine. I don't even mind someone using a Bible to tell them what to do if they can't navigate the territory of morality independently; some people do better with that sort of structure. But I do find it foolish for someone to say that those who don't require the coercision and threats of the Bible aren't as moral as those who do.

 

[cantata]

Firstly, you don't 'argue morality'; you argue about morality.

/pedant

Am I the only person that sees the irony in this? They reject their own Creator, his word, and Christ, yet somehow they feel that their own standards of morality are above all others. They wont even recognize their own sins, but somehow they think they can dictate what true morality is. Fascinating stuff.

There is only one thing that all atheists have in common: they don't believe in any gods. You can be a Buddhist atheist, a Jewish atheist, a humanist atheist, &c. Hence, this kind of generalisation is quite ridiculous. Most atheists do not attempt to dictate any sort of morality. Some of them don't even believe that there is such a thing as 'true morality'. You may as well make a generalisation about the beliefs and/or behaviour of all teachers or all traffic wardens.

I would like you, just for a moment, to imagine how you'd respond to someone attempting to convert you to Islam, and then take another look at how your complaints that atheists "reject their own Creator, his word, and Christ" might sound to a non-Christian. You reject the Koran, you unbelieving monster!

Atheism is a religion of self.

Wrong. Atheism is not a religion.

These people, in general, are quite bitter. I mean, they flock to Christian message boards just to mock our faith. How pathetic is that?

I'm certainly not here to mock anyone's faith. There are many Christians on this board whom I admire very much (FaithLikeARock, I'm lookin' at you ). I am a theology student; I like seeing how my critical study of the Bible matches up with what lay Christians believe. I'm also very interested in lay Christians' views about current issues, especially as I will be studying a Christian ethics paper quite soon.

They have nothing to look foward to except another day in their own meaningless existance.

Yes, another wonderful day Another day to learn, to enjoy the company of people I love, to listen to beautiful music, to experience the wonder of the natural and man-made world. My life has no ultimate purpose, but that's great - it means that I can spend it making the most out of every second, and trying to make a positive impact on the world. I have no angry god to answer to; I answer only to myself, and to my own ethical and aesthetic values.

I reckon I'd feel bitter too if I believed all I was here for was to pass on my genes and die alone.

I don't believe anything of the sort.

I don't believe my life has any grand purpose, which, as I said, means that I can live it to the full without worrying about whether I'm fulfilling my destiny.

How anyone can think that the creation of the universe was due to some random lucky cosmic chance is beyond me.

Nobody who understands anything about the origins of the universe believes anything of the sort.

 

[Verv]

Texan has a point.

If there is no creator, then there is no real right and wrong higher than your own human opinion.

You cannot then say that you are really doing anything other than exerting an opinion, no matter how strong, as it will never be really factual what your preference is.

And religion asserts morality, but my religion also asserts the sinfulness of man, so how could I ever expect us to get it just perfectly and have none of us ever commit sins? Of course Christianity does not cure the world because the world must cure itself, and the Christians must still cure themselves.

 

[cantata]

Texan has a point.

If there is no creator, then there is no real right and wrong higher than your own human opinion.

So are God's commands arbitrary, or does he make them based on what's good and bad?

You cannot then say that you are really doing anything other than exerting an opinion, no matter how strong, as it will never be really factual what your preference is.

Nonsense. Many non-theists defend moral realism.

 

[godismyabba]

Technically, he's an adult.

I expect adults to think and act like an adult. If people excuse the childish behavior of someone because they are "just a kid" then they won't ever learn that their behavior is not acceptable, and learn how to act like an adult.

This is not to excuse so much, just to give some perspective; we all change as we get older and grow in maturity.:

Maturity and age do not go hand in hand. I have been on both sides of this coin (atheist and Christian), and my "moral values" have not changed a whole lot.. I have always been against abortion, cheating on your spouse, ... name your sin. As a Christian, I have made some horrible mistakes, and have made some really stupid choices that could only have been changed with a little more maturity and self assurance. If you took away all references to religion (or "lack of" religion), I think most people understand murder is wrong, or that stealing someone elses possesions is wrong (ect, ect, ect).

I can tell you my views on life have changed in the last 10 yrs, and the 10 yrs before that. I can only hope in the next 10 yrs and beyond that I will continue to grow as a human being. I have a long way to go, in terms of my walk with God as well as how I view\treat people. This kid may well change his views, but then again maybe not. It all depends on if you look inward and look at yourself.. many times I don't like what I see. That is where I ask God to help me and guide me.

Religion doesn't change someone's morality. It's supposed to (for the better), but I know many who fall short of what the Bible preaches. I'm sure they could say the same about me.

 

[Beanieboy]

QFT.

The most devious, manipulative, self-centered individual I ever had the misfortune to meet was a devout, Born-Again, Bible-believing Christian. I've since come to the conclusion that religious standing is no good indicator of moral integrity. To the contrary, there seems to be a close relationship between how much someone proclaims their moral superiority, and how corrupt they actually are behind closed doors.

Gold and jade on the outside, rot and decay on the inside...

That's been my experience as well -the way the devil is said to appear as an angel of light. I suppose those that try the hardest to project self perfection in order to be in a place to condemn others, speaks more about them than the people they condemn. The same was true of the Pharisees.

 

[Washington]

Psh! I take offense to that. I can't buy liquor but I still have the ability to act respectful and use my critical thinking skills.

You're confusing the issue. It's not that everybody who is not an adult isn't capable of using critical thinking skills, but that the reason that those who lack such skills can be because they are not yet an adult. It's like saying the reason X can't reach the top shelf is because in his case he hasn't lived long enough to have grown tall enough to reach it; whereas you, who are the same age, have grown tall enough to reach the top shelf. It's a limited conditional that does not necessarily apply to all.

 

[quatona]

Texan has a point.

If so, he made it very clumsily.

If there is no creator, then there is no real right and wrong higher than your own human opinion.

Or yours.
This doesn´t depend on whether you are a theist or atheist, but on whether a god exists or not.
All you and the OP have done so far are attempts of shooting the messenger.

You cannot then say that you are really doing anything other than exerting an opinion, no matter how strong, as it will never be really factual what your preference is.

Yes, I can´t. Neither can you, and claiming your opinion to be god´s opinion doesn´t change anything about it.

 

[Maren]

Texan has a point.

No, he really doesn't.

If there is no creator, then there is no real right and wrong higher than your own human opinion.

No, not quite right. Without solid evidence of a Creator and his direct word (not a book somewhat ambiguously written thousands of years ago) is it anything more than your own human opinion. That you believe in a God and that you believe he has a moral standard is nothing more than your own human opinion. There are other Christians on this board who have a different moral standard but claim it is based on the same Creator, there are Muslims, Buddhists, Pagans, etc. Without absolute knowledge of which is true there can be no "real right or wrong" for us.

You cannot then say that you are really doing anything other than exerting an opinion, no matter how strong, as it will never be really factual what your preference is.

Just as you cannot say that you are really doing anything other than exerting an opinion.

And religion asserts morality, but my religion also asserts the sinfulness of man, so how could I ever expect us to get it just perfectly and have none of us ever commit sins? Of course Christianity does not cure the world because the world must cure itself, and the Christians must still cure themselves.

Yet none of your assertion means anything if Allah is Lord. Again, your morality is based solely on your own opinion.

 

[Morcova]

Texan has a point.

If there is no creator, then there is no real right and wrong higher than your own human opinion.

You cannot then say that you are really doing anything other than exerting an opinion, no matter how strong, as it will never be really factual what your preference is.

And religion asserts morality, but my religion also asserts the sinfulness of man, so how could I ever expect us to get it just perfectly and have none of us ever commit sins? Of course Christianity does not cure the world because the world must cure itself, and the Christians must still cure themselves.

Another poster who needs to be told murder and rape are bad.

Scary.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Yet none of your assertion means anything if Allah is Lord. Again, your morality is based solely on your own opinion.

To be fair, Allah is the same god as the Christian God (in fact "Allah" is just Arabic for "God" like "Dieu" is French for "God"). Even though Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism, they all worship the same God. [/offtopic]

 

[cantata]

To be fair, Allah is the same god as the Christian God (in fact "Allah" is just Arabic for "God" like "Dieu" is French for "God"). Even though Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism, they all worship the same God. [/offtopic]

Well, historically, yes, they do - but if you believe all three are fictional then it's a moot point.

 

[WatersMoon110]

Well, historically, yes, they do - but if you believe all three are fictional then it's a moot point.

Well, yes, if you believe that. However, she didn't say "if God doesn't exist" but "if Allah is God". So I was pointing out that "Allah" and "God" are actually two words in different languages referring to the same deity.

 

[cantata]

Well, yes, if you believe that. However, she didn't say "if God doesn't exist" but "if Allah is God". So I was pointing out that "Allah" and "God" are actually two words in different languages referring to the same deity.

Fair enough.

I'm not sure all Christians, Jews and Muslims would be comfortable with the claim that they are all worshipping the same god, though.

 

[Maren]

To be fair, Allah is the same god as the Christian God (in fact "Allah" is just Arabic for "God" like "Dieu" is French for "God"). Even though Islam is different from Christianity and Judaism, they all worship the same God. [/offtopic]

Yes, historically the God is the same but in the minds of the various belief systems this word describes a much different belief/moral system than the one Christians believe in.

 

[LonesomeTexan]

there is no point for a Christian to try to argue morality with a person who fails to recognize their own need for a savior. My sins are many, but through Christ the savior, I am forgiven. To live in denial of God is to create your own hell right here on earth. You will never experience the joy and peace that I have through faith. I don't worship out of fear of hell. I worship because I recognize just how much God has blessed me and truly loves me. It saddens me greatly to see so many reject their own Creator. Good bye and God bless.