Atheists and Christians can Agree

[alien444]

There are more than 3,700 various Gods and Goddesses that have existed throughout time Godchecker mythology encyclopedia - Your Guide To The Gods We can agree that at least 3,699 are silly; that the texts that they claim are inspired were written by men who were ignorant of science and were trying to understand their environment with the best myths they could come up with. We can agree that the individuals who worshiped Nuada,Ishtar, or Marduk or the individuals who today worship Mohammad, Vishnu, or Sango were indoctrinated in their youth by the culture they were born into and no matter how many subjective spiritual experiences they had and no matter how deeply they believed that their God existed, they were simply wrong and ignorant of the true nature of the universe.

 

[Davian]

There are more than 3,700 various Gods and Goddesses that have existed throughout time Godchecker mythology encyclopedia - Your Guide To The Gods We can agree that at least 3,699 are silly; that the texts that they claim are inspired were written by men who were ignorant of science and were trying to understand their environment with the best myths they could come up with. We can agree that the individuals who worshiped Nuada,Ishtar, or Marduk or the individuals who today worship Mohammad, Vishnu, or Sango were indoctrinated in their youth by the culture they were born into and no matter how many subjective spiritual experiences they had and no matter how deeply they believed that their God existed, they were simply wrong and ignorant of the true nature of the universe.

Which one do you think is the exception, and why?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

Unfortunately we can't agree on as much as you think

There are more than 3,700 various Gods and Goddesses that have existed throughout time Godchecker mythology encyclopedia - Your Guide To The Gods We can agree that at least 3,699 are silly;

I disagree that they are silly. Some of them are pretty cool actually. I love mythology.

that the texts that they claim are inspired were written by men who were ignorant of science and were trying to understand their environment with the best myths they could come up with.

Different people have different stories of the divine and of deity, interpreted through different cultural lenses and time periods. I don't think all texts other than the Bible are flat out wrong, nor do I think the Bible is 100% right. There's more nuance to it than that.

Ignorant? Sure. But are we not ignorant also? Do we not have our own metaphysical myths about how the universe is?

We can agree that the individuals who worshiped Nuada,Ishtar, or Marduk or the individuals who today worship Mohammad, Vishnu, or Sango were indoctrinated in their youth by the culture they were born into and no matter how many subjective spiritual experiences they had and no matter how deeply they believed that their God existed, they were simply wrong and ignorant of the true nature of the universe.

"Indoctrinated"? Sure...everyone is "indoctrinated" by some set of beliefs or axioms. I find some people that use the word "indoctrinated" use it as a euphemism for "living". Am I exempt? Are you?

I don't think anyone is entirely wrong or entirely right.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

... you're not getting ready to pull that old '... I agree with you, but just believe in one less god than you...' gag, are you?

 

[Syd the Human]

... you're not getting ready to pull that old '... I agree with you, but just believe in one less god than you...' gag, are you?

Why not?

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

I would agree with leftright on this. This might be a legitimate criticism of some simplistic fundamentalist understandings where other gods are seen as obviously nonexistent, but it ignores more coherent moderate Christian positions where other gods are seen as misunderstood forms of the one God, arguably less coherent ultra-right wing positions where the gods of other religions are seen as real demons, and the beliefs of many polytheistic religions that their gods aren't literally real and are just avatars of a single creator deity.

 

[pgp_protector]

... you're not getting ready to pull that old '... I agree with you, but just believe in one less god than you...' gag, are you?

Do you believe in more than one God?

 

[durangodawood]

I would agree with leftright on this. This might be a legitimate criticism of some simplistic fundamentalist understandings where other gods are seen as obviously nonexistent, but it ignores more coherent moderate Christian positions where other gods are seen as misunderstood forms of the one God, arguably less coherent ultra-right wing positions where the gods of other religions are seen as real demons, and the beliefs of many polytheistic religions that their gods aren't literally real and are just avatars of a single creator deity.

So for moderate Christians, worship of Hindu or Egyptian deities doesnt violate the first commandment?

 

[alien444]

Unfortunately we can't agree on as much as you think



I disagree that they are silly. Some of them are pretty cool actually. I love mythology.

I would venture that most are pretty cool---- to learn about. However, to devote your life to their satisfaction and approval is beyond silly, it is absurd. I understand that myth was the ancients' way of understanding the universe and accumulating cultural knowledge--it was their Wikipedia (yet maybe more reliable), but I don't know if myth has a purpose in today's society except in a historical perspective.



Different people have different stories of the divine and of deity, interpreted through different cultural lenses and time periods. I don't think all texts other than the Bible are flat out wrong, nor do I think the Bible is 100% right. There's more nuance to it than that.

If you do not believe the bible is inerrant, then you are a definite outlier in Christianity. If you believe other religious texts have divinely inspired information, then I'm not sure if what you believe can still be called Christianity.



Ignorant? Sure. But are we not ignorant also? Do we not have our own metaphysical myths about how the universe is?

Fair point. I lean strongly toward positivism and verificationism however and therefore believe that scientific understanding is mostly superior to our metaphysical understandings of being. Although I am not ready to say it serves no purpose like Stephen Hawking has said.



"Indoctrinated"? Sure...everyone is "indoctrinated" by some set of beliefs or axioms. I find some people that use the word "indoctrinated" use it as a euphemism for "living". Am I exempt? Are you?

I like to think I am exempt anyway. What you are talking about is socialization. Indoctrination is being taught to fully accept the ideas, opinions, and beliefs of a particular group and to not consider other ideas, opinions, and beliefs.

I don't think anyone is entirely wrong or entirely right.

I agree with that because technically anything is possible. However, thinking in possibilities can lead to some pretty strange ideas, it is much better to think in probabilities.

 

[alien444]

... you're not getting ready to pull that old '... I agree with you, but just believe in one less god than you...' gag, are you?

I think I did that in the original post didn't I. If not, that was what I was aiming at. You can minimize it as a gag, but examining the 3,699 Gods we agree are ridiculous is revealing, even if it is not groundbreaking.

 

[alien444]

I would agree with leftright on this. This might be a legitimate criticism of some simplistic fundamentalist understandings where other gods are seen as obviously nonexistent,

They were obviously nonexistent

but it ignores more coherent moderate Christian positions where other gods are seen as misunderstood forms of the one God,

Extremely misunderstood. Like the Babylonian God who eats babies.

arguably less coherent ultra-right wing positions where the gods of other religions are seen as real demons,

Well that's just crazy.

and the beliefs of many polytheistic religions that their gods aren't literally real and are just avatars of a single creator deity.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but which polytheistic religion believes their Gods are not literally real? How is that a Christian position on the existence or non-existence of other Gods?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There are more than 3,700 various Gods and Goddesses that have existed throughout time Godchecker mythology encyclopedia - Your Guide To The Gods We can agree that at least 3,699 are silly; that the texts that they claim are inspired were written by men who were ignorant of science and were trying to understand their environment with the best myths they could come up with. We can agree that the individuals who worshiped Nuada,Ishtar, or Marduk or the individuals who today worship Mohammad, Vishnu, or Sango were indoctrinated in their youth by the culture they were born into and no matter how many subjective spiritual experiences they had and no matter how deeply they believed that their God existed, they were simply wrong and ignorant of the true nature of the universe.

I would agree with you for the most part, other than that I might add the caveat that if the true nature of the universe includes the fact that God created it, then the Hebrews/Jews at least knew 'something' about the true nature of the universe. And if the Hebrew God saw fit to not fill the ancient people's in on the full 'truth' of the matter, then they knew what they needed to know at that time.

 

[alien444]

I would agree with you for the most part, other than that I might add the caveat that if the true nature of the universe includes the fact that God created it, then the Hebrews/Jews at least knew 'something' about the true nature of the universe.

A lot of these Gods are creator Gods, and their worshipers believed profoundly that they were given the true nature of the universe. When they say that the world was created with mud on top of a turtle's shell, this isn't just a quirky story, they believe it to be the true nature of the universe.


And if the Hebrew God saw fit to not fill the ancient people's in on the full 'truth' of the matter, then they knew what they needed to know at that time.

Well, then that's that.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Why not [pull the rather tired old 'one less god' gag]?

Mainly because it is such a tired and simple-minded gag; not worth repeating. Seriously, it has less intellect than a 'chicken-crossing-road' gag.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Okay, Alien; I'll bite for you.

I know the one actual, Creator God of the Universe. We have a personal relationship and we talk every day. He told me He is the only God (the Ultimate, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Trinitarian) who exists. All the others are either fallen angels - demons for lack of a better term - who masquerade as 'gods', or just figments of imaginations.

Now, Alien; you tell me how is it you know the One I know doesn't exist. Tell me how 'The Great Nothing' came and revealed the secrets of the Universe to you.

 

[alien444]

Mainly because it is such a tired and simple-minded gag; not worth repeating. Seriously, it has less intellect than a 'chicken-crossing-road' gag.

I am not sure how it qualifies as a "gag". It is observation that highlights the very long history of humanity and their chosen gods, the fact that Christians do not believe in the existence of 3,699 of them in the exact same way that atheists do not believe in all 3,700 of them, and the arrogance to think you have been just lucky enough to have been born into the culture of the one who actually exists.

 

[Standing_Ultraviolet]

They were obviously nonexistent

I would say that the non-existence of some gods isn't something you can take for granted. Some of them are as heavily abstracted and have arguments that are just as reasonable as the arguments for the Christian God. While I've reached the conclusion that I don't accept the existence of the Christian God, I'll admit that I probably wouldn't have reached that conclusion if I had lived in the middle of the 19th century before archaeological and genetic evidence pointed significantly away from the possibility of a literal truth for some very important elements of Christian theology (the original sin of Adam & Eve, the historicity of the Exodus, etc.).

Extremely misunderstood. Like the Babylonian God who eats babies.

Sometimes, yes. Very, very misunderstood. Then again, more liberal denominations tend to believe that the ancient Israelites misunderstood God in much the same way. If you don't believe in Biblical inspiration, it's a lot easier to square away the things described in some of the books of the Old Testament with the idea of a loving God. You would have no reason not to say that they just didn't happen, and they're violent propaganda from an ancient and oppressed society projecting their values onto God.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but which polytheistic religion believes their Gods are not literally real? How is that a Christian position on the existence or non-existence of other Gods?

It's not a Christian position. I think there was a misunderstanding there.

Some streams of Hinduism, while complicated, often see the gods as avatars of one god. They exist, but they aren't independent beings. During the classical era in the Mediterranean, you had philosophical beliefs that were similar regarding the local gods. They weren't as widespread, though.

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

the fact that Christians do not believe in the existence of 3,699 of them in the exact same way that atheists do not believe in all 3,700 of them

Not in the exact same way, really. The basis of my disbelief in those gods is my belief in the one that does exist.

and the arrogance to think you have been just lucky enough to have been born into the culture of the one who actually exists

How is that arrogance?

 

[alien444]

Not in the exact same way, really. The basis of my disbelief in those gods is my belief in the one that does exist.

This is circular logic. Besides, you don't just not believe in the other Gods because of the Christian God. You don't believe in them because there is nothing in terms of evidence or reason that makes you think that there existence is more than insignificantly probable.


How is that arrogance?

It is arrogant to believe that of the billions of other people who have worshiped thousands of other Gods and believed in them and had spiritual experiences that are equal to yours and just as profound, you are right and they are/were wrong.

 

[alien444]

Okay, Alien; I'll bite for you.

I know the one actual, Creator God of the Universe. We have a personal relationship and we talk every day. He told me He is the only God (the Ultimate, Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Trinitarian) who exists. All the others are either fallen angels - demons for lack of a better term - who masquerade as 'gods', or just figments of imaginations.

Your evidence is subjective and could easily be the result of psychosis (please note I am not calling you psychotic).

Now, Alien; you tell me how is it you know the One I know doesn't exist. Tell me how 'The Great Nothing' came and revealed the secrets of the Universe to you.

I cannot prove that the Christian God doesn't exist anymore than you can prove that the Egyptian Gods do not exist. I have no "secrets" when it comes to the universe and have far more questions than answers. However, if you want to know how our universe works, there are far more qualified individuals than I to explain it and no shortage of scientific evidence.