Atheists/Agnostics & Death

[Crowns&Laurels]

Atheism is not "the rejection of God".

Not the definition, but professing in it is. An atheist who spends their time speaking against God is not agnostic, but anti-theistic.
It's funny that a person should say they are atheist because they are skeptical, but are always determined to go against God in any discussion or observation.

 

[Cute Tink]

Not the definition, but professing in it is. An atheist who spends their time speaking against God is not agnostic, but anti-theistic.
It's funny that a person should say they are atheist because they are skeptical, but determined to go against God in any discussion or observation.

And an atheist who simply is there for the discussion? Or simply challenges the assertions made?

I'm not against God in any discussion or observation, but I do sometimes call out really bad assertions.

You do seem to have an absolute view of atheists, as if we are all the same.

 

[bhsmte]

Not the definition, but professing in it is. An atheist who spends their time speaking against God is not agnostic, but anti-theistic.
It's funny that a person should say they are atheist because they are skeptical, but are always determined to go against God in any discussion or observation.

How does one go against something they don't believe exists?

Sort of like those theists that claim, atheists hate God. How do you hate something you don't believe exists?

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

And an atheist who simply is there for the discussion? Or simply challenges the assertions made?

I'm not against God in any discussion or observation, but I do sometimes call out really bad assertions.

You do seem to have an absolute view of atheists, as if we are all the same.

~Matthew 12:30~
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

I'll take Jesus' word over yours.

 

[Willis Gravning]

I once posted the age old question, 'Why is there something instead of nothing?'. One answer I received was, '...because nothing is not the default state.' It is a good answer!

So let's assume as axiom1- Nothing is not the default state.

Next question. What happens after death?

You cease to exist. Effectively becoming nothing.

But what about axiom 1?

 

[Cute Tink]

~Matthew 12:30~
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

I'll take Jesus' word over yours.

I didn't realize that Jesus was more adversarial than most people I know. What an interesting thought.

 

[Colter]

I didn't realize that Jesus was more adversarial than most people I know. What an interesting thought.

There is no MOTR, middle of the road solution to the fundamental question of life.

 

[Cute Tink]

There is no MOTR, middle of the road solution to the fundamental question of life.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Can you elaborate?

 

[jayem]

I once posted the age old question, 'Why is there something instead of nothing?'. One answer I received was, '...because nothing is not the default state.' It is a good answer!

So let's assume as axiom1- Nothing is not the default state.

Next question. What happens after death?

You cease to exist. Effectively becoming nothing.

But what about axiom 1?

Something still exists after I die. Just not me.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

I've lost a friend recently who was an atheist. As he would put it, a 'dogmatic' atheist.' I consider myself to have an atheistic view, but also agnostic. I was once a Christian, a very pious one. I keep wondering about an after life, since his passing. If there is one, and if there is...what might a religious person tell an atheist in such a case?

Just thinking out loud, I guess.

In times of grief and loss I think sincere, compassionate quiet sometimes is more meaningful and beneficial than platitudes or philosophies. All I'd simply say is that I'm so sorry for the loss. In 2012 a friend was killed when she ran across the street to catch our bus and was struck by an oncoming car, and at her funeral her rabbi gave similar advice. He said to not search for meaning in her death (at age 13), or to say that she was in a better place, or any of that, but to simply express our love for her and our sadness that she's no longer with us. Later that year after the Newton massacre there was a segment on NPR where spiritual and religious leaders talked about how to respond to the grief. Their advice in essentially echoed that of the rabbi's. In my own experience with death and mourning, companionable, benevolent silence is also more comforting than any talk of the afterlife.

I've never found the concept of heaven or hell to be true, just, or to give any sense of peace. When we die, our bodies are still in the ground, or have been scattered onto the earth. We are still here, in a way. Hopefully our loved ones continue to have us live in their hearts. The product of our effort is left behind. That's the after life that is significant to me.

 

[Willis Gravning]

Something still exists after I die. Just not me.

It is difficult to imagine not existing. But if we think some kind of afterlife we seem to imagine ourselves with hands and eyes...sort of the way we are now.

 

[Colter]

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. Can you elaborate?

The question of God, an allegence to our creator or the decision to forsake him.

 

[Deidre32]

In times of grief and loss I think sincere, compassionate quiet sometimes is more meaningful and beneficial than platitudes or philosophies. All I'd simply say is that I'm so sorry for the loss. In 2012 a friend was killed when she ran across the street to catch our bus and was struck by an oncoming car, and at her funeral her rabbi gave similar advice. He said to not search for meaning in her death (at age 13), or to say that she was in a better place, or any of that, but to simply express our love for her and our sadness that she's no longer with us. Later that year after the Newton massacre there was a segment on NPR where spiritual and religious leaders talked about how to respond to the grief. Their advice in essentially echoed that of the rabbi's. In my own experience with death and mourning, companionable, benevolent silence is also more comforting than any talk of the afterlife.

I've never found the concept of heaven or hell to be true, just, or to give any sense of peace. When we die, our bodies are still in the ground, or have been scattered onto the earth. We are still here, in a way. Hopefully our loved ones continue to have us live in their hearts. The product of our effort is left behind. That's the after life that is significant to me.

This is one of the most insightful things I've read in a long time about death. Thank you. It really has helped me, and I'm glad I made this thread because everyone's views here have been so intriguing, in their own individual ways.

 

[Deidre32]

I once posted the age old question, 'Why is there something instead of nothing?'. One answer I received was, '...because nothing is not the default state.' It is a good answer!

So let's assume as axiom1- Nothing is not the default state.

Next question. What happens after death?

You cease to exist. Effectively becoming nothing.

But what about axiom 1?

Being scientific for a moment, since energy cannot be created nor destroyed, maybe it is transferred to something else.

Somewhere...else?

 

[Deidre32]

Wouldn't that make such a person an Agnostic? To be an Atheist generally means a decision has been made.

Atheism is more along the lines of belief, whereas agnosticism is about knowledge. In that case, it could very well be said that since none of us have the knowledge, or ENOUGH knowledge either way to definitively believe that a god exists or not, we could all be agnostic. lol

I said could.

 

[com7fy8]

In Post #45 >

Is that reasonable?

This is about if it is wise and considerate to tell an atheist we will pray for the person while the atheist is grieving the loss of someone special to the atheist.

I offer that I know that there are people who can find it offensive for me to tell them I am praying for them. And I think it is good to get to know each person and go with how we are relating and communicating . . . like you said, I think, in so many words in your Post #45.

There are people with whom I talk about whatever they are talking about. But at times ones may ask me what I think or what I do. And I might advise them that my answer is going to have religious things in it, and do they want to talk about it. Often enough, they say ok. And I also listen to what they say.

So, yes, I would say what you said is reasonable and makes an issue that we need to deal with. So, thank you

By the way, Jesus does say not to use praying in order to show off how pious and righteous and superior I am > Matthew 6:5-15. I need to care about people I pray for; and I understand that people can tell if I really care about them, even if I do some things that are questionable.

And God knows if you care, and He can have things work out.

 

[Deidre32]

In Post #45 >This is about if it is wise and considerate to tell an atheist we will pray for the person while the atheist is grieving the loss of someone special to the atheist.

I offer that I know that there are people who can find it offensive for me to tell them I am praying for them. And I think it is good to get to know each person and go with how we are relating and communicating . . . like you said, I think, in so many words in your Post #45.

There are people with whom I talk about whatever they are talking about. But at times ones may ask me what I think or what I do. And I might advise them that my answer is going to have religious things in it, and do they want to talk about it. Often enough, they say ok. And I also listen to what they say.

So, yes, I would say what you said is reasonable and makes an issue that we need to deal with. So, thank you

By the way, Jesus does say not to use praying in order to show off how pious and righteous and superior I am > Matthew 6:5-15. I need to care about people I pray for; and I understand that people can tell if I really care about them, even if I do some things that are questionable.

And God knows if you care, and He can have things work out.

When I was a Christian, I thought that prayers were more for me/others, than having much to do with God. I mean, God was ''listening,'' but now that I'm no longer religious, I don't get offended because I think that prayers are religious people's way of dealing with loss, and tragedy. It was quite a shift to move from always praying, to no longer praying...to calling on a god to help me, or help me make sense of a situation, to calling on only myself. It might sound bleak to someone who is spiritual or religious, but atheists do have hope. And do offer hope to others who are in need.

 

[com7fy8]

Being scientific for a moment, since energy cannot be created nor destroyed, maybe it is transferred to something else.

Somewhere...else?

Well, on your computer, you can stop the energy impulsing to an application so it stops doing something and does not show itself as much as while the app is functioning. I suppose, that, like this, when someone dies God could stop the energy flow to a person in such a way that the person stops but still exists and can be reactivated. When an application has served its purpose, it can get turned off, but later it can be turned on, again. People do serve each one's purpose while on this earth, then they stop. However, humans might not take things like this. I would not go into this, I offer, in talking with a grieving person.

But, likewise, if a light bulb goes off, this does not mean it is really dead. There is energy which can light up that bulb, again.

And you might have seen how UV light can contact something and there is an effect of how that thing will show up in the UV light; the effect of the UV light depends on the nature of the thing which the UV hits. Also, of course, UV light can effect our skin. I can see, like this, how "God is light" (in 1 John 1:5) > He effects things, bringing out the nature of each thing . . . like how sunlight can help a human to produce vitamin D, while that same loving sunshine can burn and dry out a worm on the sidewalk. The nature of a person can have a lot to do with how that person becomes after dying, how the person then is effected and not effected by God.

So, in dealing with someone dying, I don't be wishful. I won't make a point of telling someone if a person went to Heaven or hell, but also I don't go along with people's wishful claims, because I understand that they could have made the person a love idol above question.

since none of us have the knowledge, or ENOUGH knowledge either way to definitively believe that a god exists or not, we could all be agnostic. lol

Like I offer > God knows, and He is able to communicate.

I think that prayers are religious people's way of dealing with loss, and tragedy.

They can be. But I find it can help a lot not to be wishful, and not to fear death, because I know God knows what He is doing.

It was quite a shift to move from always praying, to no longer praying...to calling on a god to help me, or help me make sense of a situation, to calling on only myself.

For me, prayer has become more of a way of seeking how God would correct me to get real with Him in His love, and become all-loving. And in prayer I am sensing for how He pleases to share with me in His peace and guide me in His peace, and cure my nature so I am more and more naturally caring and creative in loving people . . . including, as ones have indicated, to have more ability to feel people out so I can connect with them, or at least be the way a good friend should be, so I am ready for them

 

[jayem]

It is difficult to imagine not existing. But if we think some kind of afterlife we seem to imagine ourselves with hands and eyes...sort of the way we are now.

That's a function of our culture. In other cultures that have afterlife beliefs, the form and manner of an individual's existence after death may be very different. As you know, reincarnation beliefs are common. Buddhists believe in continuing cycles of earthly birth-life-death-rebirth. One can only be free of the world's pain when one gets off this merry-go-round. Which is the state of Nirvana. That happens when one no longer exists. IIRC, Nirvana actually means nothingness. That may not appeal to Western sensibilities, but who's to say?

 

[quatona]

I once posted the age old question, 'Why is there something instead of nothing?'. One answer I received was, '...because nothing is not the default state.' It is a good answer!

So let's assume as axiom1- Nothing is not the default state.

Next question. What happens after death?

You cease to exist. Effectively becoming nothing.

But what about axiom 1?

What to it? It´s unaffected. Nothing is still not the default state (actually, it isn´t a state at all), and something still exists.
(" Effectively becoming nothing." isn´t an accurate description.)