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Pretty much my view, too. If there is common ground (as between Christians of different denominations) there might be some reason to haggle, but as between Theists and Atheists, that's not the case.
It's difficult to tell Atheist anything of a spiritual nature, they generally have to discover the truth through experience and painful ego deflation or not. Not every acorn becomes a tree, the gift of choice in the will of the children of God allows us to chose God or forsake him. Some people choose the doctrines of death.
When I first left Christianity, I felt that way about people who would say 'I'll pray for you,' etc. But, I remember when I said it as a believer. lolI'll keep you in my thoughts will also be fine.
Don't use the word prayer, because that will come across as snide.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Don't use the word prayer, because that will come across as snide.
I think each atheist can speak for oneself, about if the word "prayer" would be "snide".
Yes, they can, but use the word prayer at your own risk. If you don't care about coming across as snide, go right ahead.
com7fy8 said:And saying "prayer" can be included in our example, so an atheist can understand that we do not depend on and trust in ourselves, but we look to God for all that is truly good.
You might be speaking for how you would take it. If a person already knows me, that person can know where I'm coming from and if I am just into an ego thing of self-righteous proselytizing or if I really care about the person. If you assume that any and all people would be "snide" to say "prayer", I would say you do not know all these people so you could make a general statement like thatYou should never use the death of an atheist's loved one as an excuse to proselytize. That is vulture-like behavior. It is the worst.
Yes, we need to feel for others, not only subject everyone to a one-size-fits-all approach or rule about what to say or not to sayWhile this is true, in the specific moment of approaching someone who is grieving, is that an appropriate time, in your opinion, to take that chance?
You might be speaking for how you would take it.
Yes we require proof, not people telling us we have to believe to believe. As for painful ego deflation, when does that happen, not when you fail to prove anything.It's difficult to tell Atheist anything of a spiritual nature, they generally have to discover the truth through experience and painful ego deflation or not.
An oak tree exists.Not every acorn becomes a tree, the gift of choice in the will of the children of God allows us to chose God or forsake him. Some people choose the doctrines of death.
Long live Schleiermacher and his feeling of absolute dependence:I would say follow your heart and not your head. People can "reason" just about anything,
but what they "feel" about something is more often correct.
" This particular group of readers – the “Cultured Despisers of Religion” – are also, frequently, a part of the Romantic movement, which while despising religion was seeking alternative visions to the cold, mechanical facts and limitations of reason and empiricism. Into this arena Schleiermacher introduced his refreshingly new vision of religion as a feeling: “Religion is to seek this and find it in all that lives and moves, in all growth and change, in all doing and suffering. It is to have life and to know life in immediate feeling, only as such an existence in the Infinite and Eternal.” (On Religion, 36) He goes on to say: “…true religion is sense and taste for the Infinite.” "
^^
(source of quote)
Heaven; the word, the description and the name conjure up a myriad of imaginings. Even though Jesus said nothing the mind of man can imagine will prepare anyone who arrives there for what they will experience. This musing is my own version of imagining heaven. I think it may prompt some thoughts.
First, let’s travel back before time existed. God, the Son and the Holy Spirit were all there was. The Spirit of God set creation into motion, and even though the bible isn’t clear on this, the angels were part of the first creation. Lucifer’s rebellion, which brought evil into God’s creation, not Eve’s original sin, placed a third of the angels into opposition with God. Creation was stained.
Consider the word, “creation”; it covers far more territory than this planet. The book of Revelation tells us of the creation of a new heaven (meaning the cosmos) and a new earth as one of the closing acts of the battle against sin. The size of the cosmos is beyond imagining and it is entirely possible that the actual size of creation is infinite, meaning without end in the literal sense.
When I was growing up the picture of heaven painted for me was the classic cliché of clouds, harps and cherubs. Guaranteed that is not what awaits us. Consider this; every positive attribute found in humanity is amplified in God to a power beyond number. One of those is the desire to share. How many parents find joy in showing their child new and wonderful things? How many children create a drawing, a craft or discover something fascinating and rush to show it off? It is the same with God. There are several passages where God is depicted as having a conversation where He is “showing off”. God is proud of his creation and rightly so and He is very interested in showing it to us.
Have you ever wanted to watch what goes on at the event horizon of a black hole up close and personal? Make sure you get to heaven. Have you ever wanted to explore galaxies? Jesus’ invitation to accept his sacrifice is your ticket. Heaven is eternal and the Bible indicates that the process of life multiplying will continue. An infinite cosmos as part of heaven, untainted by sin seems to be the most reasonable way of accommodating that expansion.
Speaking of life, it is not just possible but highly probable that every form of life, every species and subspecies that has been on this earth will be there. Playing fetch with a velociraptor could very easily be something to consider. Everything a good parent does with their child is something God wants to do with us.
However, being granted access to this new creation is not guaranteed, not if you haven’t made the arrangements. Jesus said more than once that the acceptance in his all-encompassing sacrifice is required. “Washed in his blood” is not just a countrified Southern Baptist song.
The following if a reprint, but it is an important one:
“All religions are the same. They believe in the same God as the Christians. A truly loving God would accept everybody.” Very few people want to hear that every one of the previous statements are not just wrong but horribly and quite probably eternally misleading. John 14:6 has this statement, “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
By extension Jesus used the term, I Am several times and the translation from the Aramaic gives us the same phrase God used when telling Moses His name. A number of apologists attempt to de-deify Jesus by pointing out that he never came out and said, “I am God and you will worship me,” but this is pure equivocation since the earthly ministry of the man Jesus is entirely different than the position He was placed into upon ascension. In the bible there is are several places where God speaks of himself in both the singular and the plural. This link has many of the biblical references, http://www.evidencetobelieve.net/triune_god_in_the_scriptures.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/trin16.htm, is a web page where a good many of the scriptures show Jesus indicating that he is indeed God made flesh.
So where does that put us? It all goes back to what I have said many times before, the pathway into eternal life is open and free to all, it is the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus. A full understanding of that as far as the scriptures are concerned comes later. You do not need to be able to enter into a doctoral dissertation in order to be given salvation; you just have to accept that Jesus died on the cross for you, personally.
An awful lot of what went on behind the scenes of the crucifixion is really quite interesting. The Devil was actually conned into taking Jesus’ spirit, a third of the triune God, into hell…illegally. Because Jesus had met all the requirements of the law, the only man to ever do so, he was qualified for Heaven. By taking an innocent into Hell the Devil broke his contract with God thus allowing the creation of a new covenant, the acceptance of which became an act of free will on the behalf of the reborn believer.
This con would only have worked if Jesus had been God made flesh, not a mere prophet or a form of an angel, but a sinless being, a part of the creator of the universe. Believing in that, or more correctly, being willing to develop a belief in that is the only way to get to Heaven. You cannot get there just by accepting that Jesus was a prophet the same as Mohammed. You cannot get there by racking up an impressive list of charitable deeds or meditating on the universe and “being a good person”. Those who rely on Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Wicca or any other form of religious activity will be eternally disappointed if they die without accepting Jesus as their savior.
Please understand this; no Christian has the right to declare that any one individual is going to Hell. God very clearly states that He is the final judge and He has every right to make the final decision. He made us, we did not make him. However, we do have the responsibility to point out the very clear fact that the door to Heaven opens to only one form of ID, that of the believer in Jesus’ eternal sacrifice.
Yes, but atheism isn't about ego, as many might assume. Not everyone is like Richard Dawkins. lol
What is a 'Christian seeker?' Just curious, I see your religious status as such.
Logically, that would mean rejecting much of the New Testament as being divinely-inspired. To put it another way, either Paul's Epistles don't belong in the Bible or else the Bible isn't to be taken as being the Word of God.Christian seeker = I believe Jesus was what he said he was, I have found his teachings to be true, but the religion that Paul started about Jesus is a divergence from the original religion of Jesus.
Yes we require proof, not people telling us we have to believe to believe. As for painful ego deflation, when does that happen, not when you fail to prove anything.
An oak tree exists.
Every invisible acorn becomes an invisible oak tree in the mind of those who choose to believe it does.
The doctrine of death. I can prove death, so what else is there?
Logically, that would mean rejecting much of the New Testament as being divinely-inspired. To put it another way, either Paul's Epistles don't belong in the Bible or else the Bible isn't to be taken as being the Word of God.
What do you think?
The part that says they wrote as they were inspired by God to write shouldn't be given any credence, then?The theory that the Bible is the written Word of God is extra-biblical.
Requiring proof is a cop out, besides, you cannot disprove the existence of God yet you have faith in that so??????
Wouldn't that make such a person an Agnostic? To be an Atheist generally means a decision has been made.Not all atheists have faith that there is no God, merely lack faith that there is. Subtle distinction, but important.
Wouldn't that make such a person an Agnostic? To be an Atheist generally means a decision has been made.
Meaning, I'd think, that they're embarrassed about being thought to be Atheists.No, it doesn't. At least, that's not how atheists consider the matter.
eudaimonia,
Mark
If you're without a belief in God, you believe that there is none. If you are unsure, you are Agnostic.A = without, Theist = believer in God.
I am without belief in God.
But that isn't the same as I believe there is no God.
See the difference?
That's what I would think. Because if you had knowledge of God you couldn't disbelieve, and there is no way of knowing that there is no God.Agnostic usually referring to a lack of knowledge, which would mean I'm also agnostic.
Why would the word "gnostic" be part of that? It seems superfluous, but more than that, it seems incorrect since "gnostic" derives from one who has knowledge, but it's not possible to "know" that there is no God, merely that you don't believe there is one (or several or many).A gnostic atheist would be someone who positively declares that there is no God.
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