Atheist Universe: Not Impossible

[marksman007]

What is a Godlian? In 50 years of study, I have never come across the concept.

Still waiting for a response.

 

[quatona]

Your devotion to the God of atheism

 

[DeathMagus]

Your devotion to the God of atheism has blinded your eyes. If I am wrong, I am not just as much hurt as the rest of you. If I am wrong I have wasted 70 years, if you are wrong and you are, you have wasted eternity. I don't consider 70 years on the same plane as eternity. If you do, your not very good at maths.

You're missing his point, I think. Suppose that Odin is the one true god, and he is angered by those who don't believe in and follow him, and will punish us . Then you are in as much hurt as the rest of us. Pascal's wager is flawed for several reasons, but one of the bigger ones is that it creates a false dichotomy.

 

[marksman007]

You're missing his point, I think.

Let him answer then.

 

[marksman007]

What is a Godlian? In 50 years of study, I have never come across the concept.

Still waiting for a response.
​

 

[marksman007]

Pascal's wager is flawed for several reasons, but one of the bigger ones is that it creates a false dichotomy.

I have noticed that any statemnent is flawed according to atheists if it doesn't support their fairy story.

 

[allhart]

Because it only takes a single mutation to change how (say) the surface coating on a leaf tastes to a bug. In the parent, the leaves are tasty, but in the mutant offspring, the leaves are bitter and horrible. I read an article recently about how the mirror-image of an otherwise sweet-tasting sugar molecule tastes incredibly salty and nasty. Just goes to show.
Also, it doesn't have to be quick. Bugs eating your leaves isn't deadly, it's just a bloody nuisance. It's like nits, I suppose: they won't kill you, but you'll be glad to be rid of them.
And for the record, we have seen species evolved in our lifetime. Everything an new individual is born, that's an instance of evolution. Indeed, we seen whole species form, both naturally in the wild and deliberately in the lab.


Apparently, quite well. The argument from personal incredulity ("I can't imagine how it could happen, therefore it didn't happen!") is, to say the least, fallacious.


What do you mean, "sustains it all"? The energy that allows life on Earth to form comes from nuclear fission. The underlying physics also explains how electrons, magnetism, and everything else also work. What, exactly, are you asking?


The sublime irony is that this story was originally used to show that all religions are basically wrong, and bickering about who's got the right religion misses the point that everyone's right.


If you have a logical argument, please, present it. If you can actually demonstrate that something shows evidence of design, please, go ahead. But all you've done is basically ask rather simply questions about evolution and physics: "How does the Sun work?", "How do plants know to look pretty for bees?", etc. Try not to declare victory by asking such questions, because people will have invariably thought of them before, and answered them.

Lets try to put it to ya this way. You have space, time and matter. In which you assume first in origin! Then you can't explain origin? Also about nuclear fusion it will run out of fuel overtime, so what sustains atoms? All matter is based on the atomic realm. Which has no purpose or goal, from your perspective? They just keep reforming themselves into another partial matter? Combination that just builds more new complex combination's in and around the laws of nature?

You ever here of Atomic theory of matter and evolution? Structural recall rearrangement with part-to-whole determinism?

Material objects that have no brain(homo-sapiens) Humans beings are just matter? How did we acquired self awareness? Parts-to whole, Atoms, cause and effect!
Final cause without a purpose and goal. Determinism thru-time with no final cause?

Lets look at air, fire, water and earth. On earth all this has no purpose? Then the sea never fills while all the water running in to it.....? What you say that is mother nature? What about cause and effect in that equation???????

If matter doesn't think for itself and we are matter, just matter that is nothing more than molecules/atoms that are restructured and more complex. What do you say about color,sound, taste and smell??????

Like i said until you can come up with a reasonable logical explanation. I am going to stick to Gen. and Ecc. Chapter 1

Cause and effect in and around Human beings. The origin and meaning is like a borrowed lender and To change the equation you have to have one that possess. meaning we all have borrowed life from our parents, but someone had to possess that life and to look at the cause and effect of that. He would have to be outside matter, In material, timeless, space-less, supernatural, power of freewill and the power to initiate instantaneously. Let there be light! In the law of nature Cause and effect

 

[roflcopter101]

In which you assume first in origin! Then you can't explain origin?

Can you explain to me the origin of the Christian God?

Also about nuclear fusion it will run out of fuel overtime, so what sustains atoms? All matter is based on the atomic realm. Which has no purpose or goal, from your perspective? They just keep reforming themselves into another partial matter? Combination that just builds more new complex combination's in and around the laws of nature?

Yes, they pretty much seem to be combinations. In fact, there is an entire field of study focused on the interactions of atoms popularly known as chemistry.
Anyway, we're all doomed in the long run. The second law of thermodynamics states that the universe will run out of usable energy in the long run, which is usually cited as the ultimate "emo" justification, as one may consider civilization pointless if it will eventually end.

You ever here of Atomic theory of matter and evolution? Structural recall rearrangement with part-to-whole determinism?

Atomic theory of matter? Yes. Atomic theory of evolution? No.
Structural recall rearrangement? What is that? How can something be "part to whole" deterministic?

Material objects that have no brain(homo-sapiens)

?

Humans beings are just matter? How did we acquired self awareness? Parts-to whole, Atoms, cause and effect!

Human beings are matter. Your computer is matter. The air is matter. Anything that takes up mass and volume is matter. Self-awareness is not necessarily an impossible goal; given current theories of how life originated, one may be able to construct life given a sufficiently long period of time and exorbitant amounts of money.
I really don't get what this statement is saying. Atoms make up pretty much all matter yet observed, alright, but parts to whole? Cause and effect? What does that mean?

Lets look at air, fire, water and earth. On earth all this has no purpose?

Is there a purpose for a ball rolling down a hill?

Then the sea never fills while all the water running in to it.....? What you say that is mother nature? What about cause and effect in that equation???????

What are you saying? This is incomprehensible.

If matter doesn't think for itself and we are matter, just matter that is nothing more than molecules/atoms that are restructured and more complex. What do you say about color,sound, taste and smell??????

Matter, when in certain forms, may exhibit behaviour perceivable as thinking. We are complex amalgamations of atoms, molecules, and cells, in a certain point of view.
As for colour, taste, sound, and smell, it is technically possible for me to put an electrode in your brain to make you see blue whenever I pump in current.

Like i said until you can come up with a reasonable logical explanation. I am going to stick to Gen. and Ecc. Chapter 1

Why?

Cause and effect in and around Human beings. The origin and meaning is like a borrowed lender and To change the equation you have to have one that possess. meaning we all have borrowed life from our parents, but someone had to possess that life and to look at the cause and effect of that. He would have to be outside matter, In material, timeless, spaceless, supernatural, power of freewill and the power to initiate instantaneously. Let there be light!

??? Articulate this paragraph more clearly, please.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Lets try to put it to ya this way. You have space, time and matter.

Agreed. But bear in mind all these answers are my answers. They aren't necessarily ubiquitous of all atheists, or all scientists, or all evolutionists, or all naturalists, or all materialists, etc.

In which you assume first in origin!

We assume nothing about their origin. Going by modern science, we can only probe back 13.56 billion years (please, let's not get into the Big Bang theory again...). Beyond that, we can't tell what, it anything, happened. It's a misnomer that science calls the Big Bang the origin of time, space, and matter. It does not.

Then you can't explain origin?

Indeed. It is no secret that humans are limited in knowledge; there is only so much we know. We know a lot about the history of the universe, but we don't know very much about its origins.

Also about nuclear fusion it will run out of fuel overtime, so what sustains atoms?

What do you mean, 'sustains'? Atoms aren't 'sustained', they just exist, minding their own business. If you want to know how atoms do what they do, I'd be happy to answer your questions, but you're going to have to be more specific.

All matter is based on the atomic realm. Which has no purpose or goal, from your perspective? They just keep reforming themselves into another partial matter? Combination that just builds more new complex combination's in and around the laws of nature?

Correct.

You ever here of Atomic theory of matter and evolution? Structural recall rearrangement with part-to-whole determinism?

No. For the record, I don't believe in determinism (by which I mean, I don't think we can use the laws of physics to predict the future; there is an inherent uncertainty about the universe).

Material objects that have no brain(homo-sapiens) Humans beings are just matter?

Correct. I have seen no evidence that humans (nor anything else) contain anything but matter. If you would like to prove me wrong, please, be my guest.
Also, just FYI, Homo sapiens do have brains.

How did we acquired self awareness?

Evolution, most likely.

Parts-to whole, Atoms, cause and effect!
Final cause without a purpose and goal. Determinism thru-time with no final cause?

I beg your pardon?

Lets look at air, fire, water and earth. On earth all this has no purpose?

Correct.

Then the sea never fills while all the water running in to it.....?

Correct, though I'm not sure what it has to do with anything.

What you say that is mother nature? What about cause and effect in that equation???????

What about it? 'Cause and effect' is a naive human notion that every event must have a preceding cause. This isn't necessarily the case. That said, when we're talking about large things ('large' meaning 'unaffected by all things quantum'), cause and effect is a good approximation.

If matter doesn't think for itself and we are matter, just matter that is nothing more than molecules/atoms that are restructured and more complex. What do you say about color,sound, taste and smell??????

Colour is our perception of certain wavelengths of light when they hit our retina (red is ~750nm, blue is ~400nm). Sound is a compression wave through a medium (usually air) that our ears detect and relay to our brain. Taste and smell are our perception of chemicals that land on the chemoreceptors in our mouth and nose.

Like I said, there's nothing to suggest that there's anything 'more' than just matter and energy, atoms and molecules. If you have evidence to the contrary, please, present it.

Like i said until you can come up with a reasonable logical explanation. I am going to stick to Gen. and Ecc. Chapter 1

Why? It's illogical to assume the Bible is true just because there are gaps in human knowledge. Why not pick the Qu'ran? Or the Vedic texts? Indeed, if we could provide a logical explanation, would you drop the Bible? I think not.

Cause and effect in and around Human beings. The origin and meaning is like a borrowed lender and To change the equation you have to have one that possess. meaning we all have borrowed life from our parents, but someone had to possess that life and to look at the cause and effect of that. He would have to be outside matter, In material, timeless, space-less, supernatural, power of freewill and the power to initiate instantaneously. Let there be light! In the law of nature Cause and effect

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I mean no disrespect, but is English your naive language?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I have noticed that any statemnent is flawed according to atheists if it doesn't support their fairy story.

If someone says a statement is flawed, then they should be able to point out exactly how it is flawed. If they can't, they're talking out their backside. If they can, well, the statement really is flawed.

And with Pascal's Wager, we can show that it is flawed. Specifically, it is a false dichotomy: it assumes there are only two possibilities, when in fact there are hundreds. It assumes that, if Christianity is not true, then there is no God and no afterlife, that we just cease to exist after death.

That, obviously, isn't true. There are a vast number of ideas about the afterlife, even within Christianity itself.

The Wager attempts to show that it is infinitely better to be Christian, since the rewards for being right (Heaven) far outweigh the detriment for being wrong (nothingness; we cease to exist). But it fundamentally fails because the detriment for being a Christian and being wrong isn't that we cease to exist: according to most other religions, you go to Hell (or some other unpleasant place).

That, sir, is how Pascal's Wager is flawed.

 

[allhart]

Space, time and matter just sprung into existence? lol You guys kill me. To get meaning you have to understand origin. You use some pretenses then discard them at your convenience. All of this is in your opinions for you have no evidence to your claims, yourself. It all comes from Philosophy..... Our mind by combination of chemistry can't come from nothing. If we use the law of nature cause and effect. Consciousness of our awareness and existences comes from what cause and then its effect is predetermined to do what?? If not then whats the effect to just being material? If we have no purpose or goal? Like I said it takes more faith to believe in what you guys claim. In which is your theory and an your opinion. They aren't any facts to back your world veiw, claims! Free will comes to mind! ( Mind from matter). I don't mind, so you don't matter, kinda thing lol. This all evolves around your world view. Chemistry can't go out side of its cycle. We tend to think for there I am.....

O.K. Lawyers determine free will. Bad and good in and around free will so something out side of material has cause and effect in and around free will. Chemistry does only what it is programed to do.

Borrowed lender and possessing lender. Look at reasoning into logic this way. A) wants to borrow a ipod from B) but he would lend it, but doesn't own one, so goes to C) then C to D, D to E, E to F, F to G. to change the the equation you have to have one that possess to lend. Do you see my point?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Space, time and matter just sprung into existence? lol You guys kill me. To get meaning you have to understand origin. You use some pretenses then discard them at your convience. All of this is in your opininons for you have no evidence to your claims yourself. Philosophy.....Our mind by combination of chemistry can't come from nothing. If we use the law of nature cause and effect. Consciousness of our awareness and existences comes what by cause and whats the effect to just being material. If it has no purpose or goal? Like I said it take more faith to believe in what you guys claim. In which is your theory, opinion. They aren't fact! Free will comes to mind! ( Mind from matter). I don't mind, so you don't matter, kinda thing lol. This evolves around your world view.

O.K. Lawyers determine free will. Bad and good in and around free will so something out side of material has cause and effect in and around free will. Chemistry does only what it is programed to do.

Borrowed lender and possessing lender. Look at reasoning into logic this way. A) wants to borrow a ipod from B) but he would lend it, but doesn't own one, so goes to C) then D,E,F,G. to change the the equation you have to have one that possess to lend.

Do you see my point?

Absolutely, positively, without question... no, I have no clue what you're talking about. But you're very entertaining. Please keep it up.

 

[DeathMagus]

Space, time and matter just sprung into existence? lol You guys kill me. To get meaning you have to understand origin.

What cause do we have to believe that there is some objective "meaning" to existence?

You use some pretenses then discard them at your convenience. All of this is in your opinions for you have no evidence to your claims, yourself. It all comes from Philosophy..... Our mind by combination of chemistry can't come from nothing. If we use the law of nature cause and effect.

Is God subject to all these natural laws? Was he/she/it caused by something? If not, then you're doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing - abandoning the idea of cause and effect as soon as it becomes inconvenient for you.

Consciousness of our awareness and existences comes what by cause and whats the effect to just being material. If it has no purpose or goal? Like I said it take more faith to believe in what you guys claim. In which is your theory, opinion. They aren't fact! Free will comes to mind! ( Mind from matter). I don't mind, so you don't matter, kinda thing lol. This evolves around your world view.

Please, a little coherency goes a long way. Let's begin by at least posting complete sentences.

 

[allhart]

What cause do we have to believe that there is some objective "meaning" to existence?


Is God subject to all these natural laws? Was he/she/it caused by something? If not, then you're doing exactly what you are accusing others of doing - abandoning the idea of cause and effect as soon as it becomes inconvenient for you.



Please, a little coherency goes a long way. Let's begin by at least posting complete sentences.

Meaning to existence is seen in your free will, also Quantity can't explain it self, therefore; the borrower and possessor shows cause and effect to your mind......... Self refuting claims is what I'm showing you. I present my theory in and around knowledge. Science isn't the only way to know reality. There is a big difference between Opinion and knowing, but the best reasonable explanation gets to know..... Whom has the authority or given science the authority? It used to be that Pastors had the authority in our community, but now Dr's .have it, but the difference between Dr's. and Pastors is, Pastors you have it optional.....free will babe

Science isn't behind it all. Science is after the fact and isn't the only way to show reality!

 

[roflcopter101]

Meaning to existence is seen in your free will

What? If this is so, then what is the meaning of humanity's existence?

Quantity can't explain it self

?

borrower and possessor shows cause and effect to your mind

???

Whom has the authority or given science the authority? It used to be that Pastors had the authority in our community, but now Dr's .have it, but the difference between Dr's. and Pastors is, Pastors you have it optional.....free will babe

The reason doctors and scientists have more authority is because you cannot launch a rocket to the Moon based off of information in the bible.

 

[allhart]

What? If this is so, then what is the meaning of humanity's existence?



?



???



The reason doctors and scientists have more authority is because you cannot launch a rocket to the Moon based off of information in the bible.

Hi, my friend. I understand your thoughts of questioning,but we have to build on our information of knowing and you can't look at component four without knowing one. Origin, meaning, morality and destiny.

Morality is based on human society, social issues, moral issues, history itself and human intercourse, so we need to understand origin and meaning before we can move to understand morality. For we can't understand purpose without origin. The law of Cause and effect. You have Matter then consciousness to look at. Chemical reactions are in and around the laws of nature, but consciousness isn't. For matter can't explain itself. So what origin did cause consciousness and its effect is? There is more than just one variable here. In which explains our reality of existence. Can't you see that logically?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Hi, my friend. I understand your thoughts of questioning,but we have to build on our information of knowing and you can't look at component four without knowing one. Origin, meaning, morality and destiny.

Morality is based on human society, social issues, moral issues, history itself and human intercourse, so we need to understand origin and meaning before we can move to understand morality. For we can't understand purpose without origin. The law of Cause and effect. You have Matter then consciousness to look at. Chemical reactions are in and around the laws of nature, but consciousness isn't. For matter can't explain itself. So what origin did cause consciousness and its effect is? There is more than just one variable here. In which explains our reality of existence. Can't you see that logically?

Nothing about this is what you could call formal logic. Start with a single topic and create a syllogism around it. Then we can begin to discuss things.

 

[allhart]

Nothing about this is what you could call formal logic. Start with a single topic and create a syllogism around it. Then we can begin to discuss things.

Look my friend. I have, you just don't like the conclusion. Origin, meaning, morality and destiny. Its about God the creator and the created. You don't have the the origin so none of the other fundamentals make sense with Christians. Atheists and naturalists their faith is unknown and is opinionated. Which takes much more faith to believe in nothing than God's known conclusion! At least logically I have all components of origin, meaning, morality and destiny. To each variable. Your known facts you inject your opinions and they are unknown. They aren't fact. As I have said before you can spend your whole entire life chasing after the laws of nature, but you are missing the signature of all mighty God. You have a defeater beliefs blocking your vision.
What do you want to see or have known? Intent is prior to content!!!! Control maybe, you have never had it! Just like you didn't have control to be born! The only thing you have control over is in how you react.....

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Look my friend. I have, you just don't like the conclusion. Origin, meaning, morality and destiny. Its about God the creator and the created. You don't have the the origin so none of the other fundamentals make sense and with Christians. Atheists and naturalists their faith in the unknown and is opinionated. Which takes much more faith to believe nothing than God's known conclusion! At least logically I have all components of origin, meaning, morality and destiny. To each variable. Your known facts you inject your opinions and they are unknown. They aren't fact. As I have said before you can spend your whole entire life chasing after the laws of nature, but you are missing the signature of all mighty God. You have a defeater beliefs blocking your vision.
What do you want to see or have known? Intent is prior to content!!!! Control maybe, you have never had it! Just like you didn't have control to be born! The only thing you have control over is in how you react.....

I really, really enjoy your posts.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Space, time and matter just sprung into existence?

We quite explicitly said "No". Or rather, "We don't know".

To get meaning you have to understand origin. You use some pretenses then discard them at your convenience. All of this is in your opinions for you have no evidence to your claims, yourself. It all comes from Philosophy.....

Uhuh. I won't pretend to understand that.

Our mind by combination of chemistry can't come from nothing.

Prove it.

If we use the law of nature cause and effect.

No such law.

Consciousness of our awareness and existences comes from what cause and then its effect is predetermined to do what?? If not then whats the effect to just being material? If we have no purpose or goal? Like I said it takes more faith to believe in what you guys claim.

I think you severely misunderstand the phrase "cause and effect". Not everything is a cause, and not every effect has a purpose. The phrase just means "some events beget future events". Such as rain begets a wet dog. It doesn't mean the dog's wetness has a grand purpose, or that the rain intelligently and freely chose to deluge that particular dog.

In which is your theory and an your opinion. They aren't any facts to back your world veiw, claims!

Since you've yet to ask us anything about our actual views (and not a transparent strawman)...

Free will comes to mind!

Prove we have free will.

We tend to think for there I am.....

Is that a typo or a bad pun?

O.K. Lawyers determine free will. Bad and good in and around free will so something out side of material has cause and effect in and around free will. Chemistry does only what it is programed to do.

Lawyers determine free will? Lawyers presume free will, otherwise the entire judicial system crumbles. But that hardly means free will actually exists.

Borrowed lender and possessing lender. Look at reasoning into logic this way. A) wants to borrow a ipod from B) but he would lend it, but doesn't own one, so goes to C) then C to D, D to E, E to F, F to G. to change the the equation you have to have one that possess to lend. Do you see my point?

No, not in the slightest. A asks B for an iPod, who asks C for an iPod to give to A, who asks D for an iPod to give to B to give to A, who asks E... etc. At some point, someone needs an iPod.
The scenario isn't difficult, and it's been thoroughly analysed by logicians for centuries. But, what on Earth does it have to do with the topic at hand? What is being loaned, and by whom, and for whom, and for what purpose?