Atheist here

[Drosophila1]

Hehe, and thanks to you too, RuthD!

 

[the_Abbot]

Hi and welcome

 

[Drosophila1]

Thanks, the_Abbot!

 

[Orchids]

Hello and welcome to foru.ms

 

[Drosophila1]

Haha, aww, that's so cute! Thanks!

 

[andross77]

Yes, you're quite right, that is bogus. No scientist will tell you that the universe or life or our sense of poetry and beauty are random. The only (apparently) random thing in the universe are quantum spin directions. I'm not trying to dodge the issue, but our views are differing on many areas, I think. So I'm taking it step by step. When I look at the universe, I see that almost all of it is completely inhospitable to humans. If all of the universe was designed with humans in mind, I don't see how that makes sense when we live as a thin film on one little pale blue dot in the vast emptiness of space. The wonders of childbirth, well... about half of all pregnancies are spontaniously self aborted. Birth defects are common and not at all indicative of a perfectly designed system of a loving deity. The cold, uncaring cruelty of reality, it's beauty, it's awe inspiring magnificense and it's frightening frailty are all, to me, indicative to an ungoverned universe. In any case, the problem still rests with you trying to conceive of a way to show what it would be like if God were not here. If you can't do that, you can't assert that the universe as it is has evidence in support of a god.

good to see a response. I guess as an atheist you see the glass half empty and as a Christian i see it half full. You talk about the spontaneous abortions and child defects but you gloss over the millions and millions of "perfect" births that happen. And in your mind, if creation came from a Creator, everything would be perfect. The reason this is wrong is because you don't take into account Freewill. If God made everything perfect, with no ability to "wreck" or "damage it" or "go against His will", we would all be robots and it would not be the greatest Universe imaginable (for i could imagine a universe where we do have choice....the universe we live in). With that choice comes responsibility and from the beginning (Adam & Eve) we have chosen to rebel against the Creator. He has allowed it to happen BECAUSE He is loving and perfect and sovereign.

And your view of the universe is backwards. You see that we only have the ability to live on earth and not, for example, saturn and so we must be insignificant. You should look at it the opposite way. The entire universe is a vast, mostly oxygenless, too hot or too cold, expanse and for Someone to make one planet in the billions and billions of galaxies or light years (that we know about) to PERFECTLY sustain life should make us incredibly grateful and awestruck. You are not seeing the beauty and majesty of it all.

To answer your question of what it would be like if God wasn't here.....think of the worst things happening in the world, multiply it by 100000000 and then experience it on a constant basis. That would be what it would be like. Of course you could only come to this conclusion if you agreed with me that we all have a deeply sinful nature. If you think we are all basically good people until proven otherwise (by murder, rape or whatever) then we have other issues to talk about. But basically the world would be in complete chaos if God was not constantly showering his common grace down upon us.

Hehe, well now you're TELLING me what I do and can, instead of asking, but anway.
The point of living is what I make of it. I'm extremely lucky to even be here, so I don't think the universe owes me a reason to live. As for having no moral compass, I have to disagree. Atheists get our morals just like everyone else: via living in a society. You might say that the bible provides you with absolute morality. But then I have some questions for you:
Are there morals because God made them, or does God let you know what they are? That is, do you believe God made morality or simply upholds them?
If God makes morality, then God could declare that murder is okay, right? He could do that if he wanted to, and then it would be a moral act. How then is morality absolute? If God simply upholds morality, we can do so without his help, since I know that murder is wrong.

We all get our morality by living together. If we want to live in a stable society where we don't have to worry about someone coming into our homes and stealing our stuff, for example, we can prosper. So we do so, and make punishments for those who break the rules we make. Furthermore, if you check prison statistics, you won't find a disproportionately large amount of atheists in prison. So obviously, we do have a sense of morality too, and it comes from living in a society. All social animals have some degree of "law and order" to which all are accountable to obey. Ours is just much more advanced. My reason to do good is that I want people to love me and like me. My hopes are to live a good life and enjoy the precious time I know I have on earth.

Sorry, that was a bit longwinded.

I see your attitude on life, but it has no basis or support coming from an atheist. You can say you want to be part of society and love others so they love you, but why? Just so you can "get by" for 70 years? Just so "your kids can go to college" or you "don't go to jail" or "so you fit in"? It has no ultimate significance. Let's say there is you and another atheist. You live by society's rules, have a good job and family, some people like you and you die at the old age of 98. Then lets say this other guy lives however he wants. Goes completely by his emotions and lusts. So he murders a friend in college over a girl. Then he later rapes a friend and forces her to have an abortion. He gets drunk daily and does drugs. He steals from local retailers b/c he has no job. On and on. He finally gets caught in a burglary gone wrong where he murders the store owner. He gets sentenced to death and dies at the age of 29.

You both cease to exist. No one will remember either of you after a few years. You will be remembered MAYBE 40 or 70 more years b/c of your family. But then you are all forgotten. What have you gained that he didn't? Nothing. You have nothing, you are nothing. So then why live by others rules? There is no point, unless you just want to be safe in society. Which is stupid since you won't ultimately get anything out of it. You should be making up your own rules and living exactly how you want to.

I'm not sure i understand your question about Scripture. God has created everything. This would include the moral code. He has revealed it in His Word (the Bible) and now, since the time of Christ, He has written it on our hearts. And to those that are His children, He has also blessed with His Spirit to guide even further. So I guess from your POV, He created and sustains the moral code.

The reason you have no moral compass, is b/c you say yours is determined by society. So if you moved to a remote jungle tribe where murder was acceptable when offended, you would say murder is OK. If you moved to Utah and one of the JW sects led by Warren Jeffs, you would have to agree that polygamy was OK, even with a minor (and incest was OK). If the new President passes a law that says full-birth abortion is OK in America, you would have to be fine with seeing a little life before you snuffed out by a metal forceps because they were "inconvenient".

So see, you have no moral ground or moral compass. You are like a "wave tossed to and fro by the wind". Since you are this unstable, you will eventually self-destruct and be like the "other atheist" i described OR you will come to your deathbed and cry out, "ALL IS MEANINGLESS! A PITY! A SHAME! Nothing i have done has any signficance and i am about to die in my self-pity!"

There is not satisfaction as an Atheist when they reflect on the deeper things in life. And that comes after the fact the stance of atheism is completely unreasonable after taking a look at the beautiful creation around them.

Looking forward to your response. I'm going to your other thread just to say hi and get a comment in

I love these sorts of conversations. Really gets the mind goin'.

Blessings.

 

[andross77]

went to the other thread and looks like it has taken off with many other people including another atheist. I'll respectfully decline comment there .

It's nice talking to you but we just see the world in two completely opposite ways. And nothing substantial will come out of a long "internet debate". If i could have this conversation in person it would be a different story.

So we will come to the end of our lives and either i'll be right and gain everything, while you lose everything or you will be right and have gained the advantage of a more correct worldview but ultimately have gained nothing and i will have lost the more correct worldview but ultimately have lost nothing. From a purely secular, worldy, "betting-man" POV i like my chances and potential outcomes.

Blessings.

 

[Drosophila1]

good to see a response. I guess as an atheist you see the glass half empty and as a Christian i see it half full. You talk about the spontaneous abortions and child defects but you gloss over the millions and millions of "perfect" births that happen. And in your mind, if creation came from a Creator, everything would be perfect. The reason this is wrong is because you don't take into account Freewill. If God made everything perfect, with no ability to "wreck" or "damage it" or "go against His will", we would all be robots and it would not be the greatest Universe imaginable (for i could imagine a universe where we do have choice....the universe we live in). With that choice comes responsibility and from the beginning (Adam & Eve) we have chosen to rebel against the Creator. He has allowed it to happen BECAUSE He is loving and perfect and sovereign.

I don't see the glass half empty. I'm just making you aware that the universe is not perfect. Now you justify its non perfection with free will. This is called a rationalization. You explain away something that blatantly contradicts your argument "the universe is so perfect only God could have done it" with a reason it ISN'T perfect. Yet what did the millions of babies born dead do to deserve death? How would a perfect world where everyone were happy be a threat to free will?

And your view of the universe is backwards. You see that we only have the ability to live on earth and not, for example, saturn and so we must be insignificant. You should look at it the opposite way. The entire universe is a vast, mostly oxygenless, too hot or too cold, expanse and for Someone to make one planet in the billions and billions of galaxies or light years (that we know about) to PERFECTLY sustain life should make us incredibly grateful and awestruck. You are not seeing the beauty and majesty of it all.

To answer your question of what it would be like if God wasn't here.....think of the worst things happening in the world, multiply it by 100000000 and then experience it on a constant basis. That would be what it would be like. Of course you could only come to this conclusion if you agreed with me that we all have a deeply sinful nature. If you think we are all basically good people until proven otherwise (by murder, rape or whatever) then we have other issues to talk about. But basically the world would be in complete chaos if God was not constantly showering his common grace down upon us.

I see mostly what you see, only that no one created the world where life as we know it could live. It's not perfect either, but it's stable enough for advanced lifeforms to evolve. And yes, I very much see the majesty of it all, and can sometimes be moved to tears by the sheer bueaty of nature. I don't need any gods to do that.
Why would it be 100000000 worse without God? Because people are just aching to rape, pillage and murder? I think perhaps you should read up a bit on behavioral science. The reasons we don't do those things are very obvious. It would not make a stable society. Would you want to live somewhere like that? I hope for your sake you would move away and join a society where everyone agreed to be nice to eachother and that people who broke the rules got tossed out or punished. Again, I remind you that all (advanced) social animals have rules of conduct.

I see your attitude on life, but it has no basis or support coming from an atheist. You can say you want to be part of society and love others so they love you, but why? Just so you can "get by" for 70 years? Just so "your kids can go to college" or you "don't go to jail" or "so you fit in"? It has no ultimate significance. Let's say there is you and another atheist. You live by society's rules, have a good job and family, some people like you and you die at the old age of 98. Then lets say this other guy lives however he wants. Goes completely by his emotions and lusts. So he murders a friend in college over a girl. Then he later rapes a friend and forces her to have an abortion. He gets drunk daily and does drugs. He steals from local retailers b/c he has no job. On and on. He finally gets caught in a burglary gone wrong where he murders the store owner. He gets sentenced to death and dies at the age of 29.

You both cease to exist. No one will remember either of you after a few years. You will be remembered MAYBE 40 or 70 more years b/c of your family. But then you are all forgotten. What have you gained that he didn't? Nothing. You have nothing, you are nothing. So then why live by others rules? There is no point, unless you just want to be safe in society. Which is stupid since you won't ultimately get anything out of it. You should be making up your own rules and living exactly how you want to.

Yikes. Nihilism is an ugly thing to see. We have different looks, no doubt. I see life itself as the main event. You see it as the door mat to wipe your feet so you can enter God's house. Every second of my 70+ years (I hope) are precious to me, because I know that's what I have. I'm not building up to some ultimate goal. Like I said, I'm lucky to even be here and I'm enjoying my existence as much as I can. What the horrible person who dies at the age of 29 does not get is a happy, long life, unless he is a sociopath. Most people are not sociopaths and would never want to do those things you mentioned. That's why we don't make up our own rules. We want to share society with others. Humans are social creatures and we're in desperate need of human contact (with a few exceptions). We also want to increase our chances of finding a loved one to have a family with. If I have to worry about random people breaking in, raping an killing my family, I don't want to live there. Neither would you, I suspect.

I'm not sure i understand your question about Scripture. God has created everything. This would include the moral code. He has revealed it in His Word (the Bible) and now, since the time of Christ, He has written it on our hearts. And to those that are His children, He has also blessed with His Spirit to guide even further. So I guess from your POV, He created and sustains the moral code.

So if God said "murder is now okay", it would be morally correct to murder?

The reason you have no moral compass, is b/c you say yours is determined by society. So if you moved to a remote jungle tribe where murder was acceptable when offended, you would say murder is OK. If you moved to Utah and one of the JW sects led by Warren Jeffs, you would have to agree that polygamy was OK, even with a minor (and incest was OK). If the new President passes a law that says full-birth abortion is OK in America, you would have to be fine with seeing a little life before you snuffed out by a metal forceps because they were "inconvenient".

I don't know of a single society where murder is okay. Nor would I HAVE to agree that polygamy is good or bad. And you have the same problem if God invented morality. God can say "murder is fine" and so it is okay. The moral compass is that we know what causes suffering, and we are constantly reducing it, if you look through history. Clearly our desire to not hurt, and our desire to not get hurt are enough to make society a nicer place to live.

So see, you have no moral ground or moral compass. You are like a "wave tossed to and fro by the wind". Since you are this unstable, you will eventually self-destruct and be like the "other atheist" i described OR you will come to your deathbed and cry out, "ALL IS MEANINGLESS! A PITY! A SHAME! Nothing i have done has any signficance and i am about to die in my self-pity!"

I matter to myself. That's all the meaning I need in life.

There is not satisfaction as an Atheist when they reflect on the deeper things in life. And that comes after the fact the stance of atheism is completely unreasonable after taking a look at the beautiful creation around them.

But you just agreed that "creation" isn't just peaches. It has pointy bits, and unfairness independent of human error or immorality. The world could have come about by natural causes and therefore it is not an unreasonable position. There is no evidence in favour of the gods and that is also a reason atheism is not unreasonable. Just saying it is unreasonable won't make it so, I'm afraid.

Yes, I enjoy this conversation too

 

[Drosophila1]

went to the other thread and looks like it has taken off with many other people including another atheist. I'll respectfully decline comment there .

It's nice talking to you but we just see the world in two completely opposite ways. And nothing substantial will come out of a long "internet debate". If i could have this conversation in person it would be a different story.

So we will come to the end of our lives and either i'll be right and gain everything, while you lose everything or you will be right and have gained the advantage of a more correct worldview but ultimately have gained nothing and i will have lost the more correct worldview but ultimately have lost nothing. From a purely secular, worldy, "betting-man" POV i like my chances and potential outcomes.

Blessings.

That's Pascal's Wager you got there. It's a very old, very debunked train of thought. You should go to wikipedia and check out why this is problematic in so many ways.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

 

[JingleBells]

 

[Drosophila1]

Thanks alot, JingleBells!

 

[andross77]

That's Pascal's Wager you got there. It's a very old, very debunked train of thought. You should go to wikipedia and check out why this is problematic in so many ways.
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_wager

i know that it is pascal's wager and it being old has no bearing on its relevancy. It's not debunked totally. I read the wikipedia and as an atheist i don't want you to address the possibility of a god that rewards evil and punishes good (however ludicrous a thought it is), but address the God of the Christian Bible. He rewards good eternally and punishes evil eternally. Good can only be defined within a relationship with Christ. So if my Christian worldview is correct, you as an atheist will regret eternally your decision to not put faith in Jesus. So the "wager" still stands. If i'm right, i gain everything and you lose everything. If you are right, i lose nothing and you gain nothing.

If you want to go into more detail personally on why it's completely "debunked", please do and i'll try to address that.

 

[andross77]

I don't see the glass half empty. I'm just making you aware that the universe is not perfect. Now you justify its non perfection with free will. This is called a rationalization. You explain away something that blatantly contradicts your argument "the universe is so perfect only God could have done it" with a reason it ISN'T perfect. Yet what did the millions of babies born dead do to deserve death? How would a perfect world where everyone were happy be a threat to free will?

my explanation for the universes non-perfection is not contained within the topic of free-will; it also branches into the nature of sin. the world is not perfect b/c God allows people to sin and their are rebellious spirits (see Satan and demons) that encourage this sort of action, for themselves and others.

Please explain how this is a "rationalization"?

I guess i should clarify too since we are so far apart in our worldviews. In my mind, we live in the "best possible of all universes". But to get to that point you have to have a conservative Christian mindset focused on the absolute Sovereignty of God. Since you aren't even close to that mindset, i should rephrase and tell you to look at the utter BEAUTY and ORDER of the universe as evidence for a Good and Loving God.

Babies die in a perfect world b/c of sin. B/c of original sin, death and decay entered this perfect universe (at that point it was perfect as you would define perfect) and every living thing had to follow it's drumbeat.

you last sentence, "How would a perfect world where everyone were happy be a threat to free will?" is too loaded. If you are talking about the world now as it is, there is no possible way this universe could exist. Because of sin, there is greed and covetousness and idolatry and adultery, etc, and so not everyone will be "happy" in the situation they find themselves in.

If you are wondering if there could be a perfect world where everyone was happy AND had free will, i would emphatically tell you, "YES, THERE IS!" This is what heaven will be. We will be perfect. The new heavens and new earth will be perfect. Everyone will be happy. Everyone will be joyful. And we will all have free will. We will just always use our free will to serve and love others and the Lord instead of sometimes serving sin and evil as we do now.

I see mostly what you see, only that no one created the world where life as we know it could live. It's not perfect either, but it's stable enough for advanced lifeforms to evolve. And yes, I very much see the majesty of it all, and can sometimes be moved to tears by the sheer bueaty of nature. I don't need any gods to do that.
Why would it be 100000000 worse without God? Because people are just aching to rape, pillage and murder?

Don't try to use hyperbole here. Not everyone is aching to rape, murder and pillage 24/7/365. You do not understand sin nature. We are all out for ourselves at different times. Some more than others. When you put yourself first, sin enters in and to some people it brings them to the extremes of rape, murder, etc. There are many times in your own life where you put yourself first.

I think perhaps you should read up a bit on behavioral science. The reasons we don't do those things are very obvious. It would not make a stable society. Would you want to live somewhere like that? I hope for your sake you would move away and join a society where everyone agreed to be nice to eachother and that people who broke the rules got tossed out or punished. Again, I remind you that all (advanced) social animals have rules of conduct.

But again, you have no standard or compass. Yours changes with society. So in your society, if Hitler became the leader, you would have to agree with him that Jews are evil and we should kill them. If Osama Bin Laden became the leader of your society, you would have to agree with him that infidels are evil and we should bomb and kill them. And you can't say you would just leave the society, b/c what if that leader takes over the entire world? Would you just kill yourself? No, you would have to agree to whatever rules they set up. So again, you have no control over the rules and they can change as much as the wind or the waves.

Yikes. Nihilism is an ugly thing to see. We have different looks, no doubt. I see life itself as the main event. You see it as the door mat to wipe your feet so you can enter God's house. Every second of my 70+ years (I hope) are precious to me, because I know that's what I have. I'm not building up to some ultimate goal.

All i am doing is taking your worldview to it's logical conclusion. Which is, in part, Nihilism. You can deny it all you want but then you are being illogical with your Atheism.

I take incredible offense at your statement that i see life as a door mat on my way to God's house. I don't know what Christians you have talked with and i'm extremely apologetic if i have come across this way. But Life on Earth is of EXTREME IMPORTANCE and should be given it's due respect, love and care. What we do here, for 70 or 80 years, we will take with us forever; some to eternal life and some to eternal death. Any Christian that tells you this life does not matter and they are just waiting to get to heaven is either not a Christian or has no understanding of Scripture and Jesus' life and commands.

Each day for me is infinitely more precious to me than your days are to you, b/c at the end of your life, you will receive the first death, as we all will, but then the reward for your unbelief will be the second death, something of which you will never recover. I on the other hand, will meet the first death as a doorway into the second life, which will last eternally. I will have rewards based on how i served Christ and they will never be taken away from me by theif or by moth. My days have meaning, whereas yours are but dust (as long as you stand as an island and hold on to your atheism).

Like I said, I'm lucky to even be here and I'm enjoying my existence as much as I can. What the horrible person who dies at the age of 29 does not get is a happy, long life, unless he is a sociopath.

Here again we differ on what is a long time. You consider 70 or 80 years a long time as opposed to 29 years. I laugh at both lengths as a passing of wind or the fading of grass. I consider 1,000,000,000,000,000 years to be the beginning of my adventure with the King. 80 years is but a thought. Here today and gone tomorrow. So, no, you have no advantage over that 29 year old. Whether you are 80 or 29, will anyone remember you in 100 years? in 1000 years? in 10,000 years? no. And when history ends, if you have not submitted to the Savior, you will even be forgotten by the Creator of All Things, which is the worst possible place to find yourself. Once He forgets you, you have no hope and no possible chance of joy ever again.

Most people are not sociopaths and would never want to do those things you mentioned. That's why we don't make up our own rules. We want to share society with others. Humans are social creatures and we're in desperate need of human contact (with a few exceptions). We also want to increase our chances of finding a loved one to have a family with. If I have to worry about random people breaking in, raping an killing my family, I don't want to live there. Neither would you, I suspect.

See my words above as a response. Agreed, most people are not sociopaths. But you are avoiding the main issue by not taking it to it's logical conclusions.

So if God said "murder is now okay", it would be morally correct to murder?

You are speaking about an impossible scenario, so there is no need to respond. gods may say, "murder is now okay", but God doesn't change and is only Loving and Good. He will never say that murder is ok.

I don't know of a single society where murder is okay.

There are indigenous tribes in Africa where murder is an acceptable part of societal living. Have you ever heard of the Auca Indians in Ecuador? Prior to missionaries witnessing to them in the 1950's, murder was a DAILY occurence and an acceptable part of society. There are STILL tribes like this today.

I don't even need to go far to find a society that accepts murder. Look where you stand. If you are on American soil, European soil, Chinese soil, Canadian soil, Russion soil, etc, you can walk down the street and have your baby murdered. No questions. Just procedures. So now that our society accepts murder, you must too, regardless if you dislike the idea of crushing a baby's skull, or sucking them out with a vacuum or what have you. You must accept it b/c the society you associate yourself with does.

Nor would I HAVE to agree that polygamy is good or bad. And you have the same problem if God invented morality. God can say "murder is fine" and so it is okay. The moral compass is that we know what causes suffering, and we are constantly reducing it, if you look through history. Clearly our desire to not hurt, and our desire to not get hurt are enough to make society a nicer place to live.

The reason you have no moral compass is b/c the measuring tool you are using is man, who will always change. If someone doesn't think that rape causes much suffering, they can rape. You can say that's preposterous, but there are sick people out there that believe it. Who are you to say they are wrong and you are right? Again, you will point to society but what if that person became the leader of your society? What if all the governing people had that sick of a mind? You would be out of luck and would have to accept Rape as a part of society.

I matter to myself. That's all the meaning I need in life.

This is the most selfish viewpoint you can possible have. This is the pride that is keeping you from a saving relationship with Jesus. At some point, hopefully sooner rather than later, you will realize that your own hand patting yourself on your own back is not good enough.


I'm trying to gauge how valuable this conversation is to continue. I would rather you just read A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism (1997) by Ravi Zacharias for a much better argument against Atheism, but i know you won't take the time to read such a book.

Your heart is hard and your ears are closed. There is not much i can do. We don't just disagree on our allegiances (mine, Christ; yours, yourself) but we disagree on most every single angle of viewing life.

"Lord, please open Drosophila1's eyes, ears and heart to your Truth. Amen."
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[Drosophila1]

i know that it is pascal's wager and it being old has no bearing on its relevancy. It's not debunked totally. I read the wikipedia and as an atheist i don't want you to address the possibility of a god that rewards evil and punishes good (however ludicrous a thought it is), but address the God of the Christian Bible. He rewards good eternally and punishes evil eternally. Good can only be defined within a relationship with Christ. So if my Christian worldview is correct, you as an atheist will regret eternally your decision to not put faith in Jesus. So the "wager" still stands. If i'm right, i gain everything and you lose everything. If you are right, i lose nothing and you gain nothing.

If you want to go into more detail personally on why it's completely "debunked", please do and i'll try to address that.

Well, you entirely missed the point that this is a false dichotomy. The possibilities are not christian god or no god. What if it's the islamic god that is the real one? Then you're in as bad shape as I am. What if the god respects my view not to believe in a deity. What if the god makes it a test to see those who would not believe him/her and only those who don't believe are worthy? I can make endless possibilities and speculations about a personal deity, and they would hold equal merrit to yours. All we can do is look for what seems most true according to our reasoning and stick by it unless convinced otherwise. At least then a potential god won't hold it against us that we are intellectually dishonest. You also seem to imply that a god would be tricked by someone PRETENDING to believe in him/her.

So yes, Pascal's Wager is very thoroughly debunked as bad logic.

 

[andross77]

Well, you entirely missed the point that this is a false dichotomy. The possibilities are not christian god or no god. What if it's the islamic god that is the real one? Then you're in as bad shape as I am. What if the god respects my view not to believe in a deity. What if the god makes it a test to see those who would not believe him/her and only those who don't believe are worthy? I can make endless possibilities and speculations about a personal deity, and they would hold equal merrit to yours. All we can do is look for what seems most true according to our reasoning and stick by it unless convinced otherwise. At least then a potential god won't hold it against us that we are intellectually dishonest. You also seem to imply that a god would be tricked by someone PRETENDING to believe in him/her.

So yes, Pascal's Wager is very thoroughly debunked as bad logic.

I never implied that God would be tricked by someone PRETENDING to believe in Him. I never said that.

You can not or maybe i should say, should not, make these endless speculations or scenarios. Why? b/c they are not reasonable. You set up all these "gods" like they all have equal possibility which is just not true.

To shrug off the Christian God you have to shrug off 2 billion current believers, billions of believers in the past, tens of thousands of documents, tons of archeological evidences, arguments from logic, arguments from Creation, the list goes on.

The gods you describe do not have any of that support. So no, pascal's wager, has not been debunked by you there. Try again.

 

[andross77]

All we can do is look for what seems most true according to our reasoning and stick by it unless convinced otherwise.

I agree with this statement completely. I just think an atheists reasoning is faulty. And i guess you think the same of mine.

At least then a potential god won't hold it against us that we are intellectually dishonest.

That is nice, but ultimately is insignificant. You will not be saved by your intellectual honesty. You will be saved by Jesus.

 

[Drosophila1]

my explanation for the universes non-perfection is not contained within the topic of free-will; it also branches into the nature of sin. the world is not perfect b/c God allows people to sin and their are rebellious spirits (see Satan and demons) that encourage this sort of action, for themselves and others.

Please explain how this is a "rationalization"?

I guess i should clarify too since we are so far apart in our worldviews. In my mind, we live in the "best possible of all universes". But to get to that point you have to have a conservative Christian mindset focused on the absolute Sovereignty of God. Since you aren't even close to that mindset, i should rephrase and tell you to look at the utter BEAUTY and ORDER of the universe as evidence for a Good and Loving God.

First you say the world is perfect, then it's not perfect because of sin and free will (how?). And then you repeat that the world is utterly beautiful. A rationalization is a justification without evidence.

you last sentence, "How would a perfect world where everyone were happy be a threat to free will?" is too loaded. If you are talking about the world now as it is, there is no possible way this universe could exist. Because of sin, there is greed and covetousness and idolatry and adultery, etc, and so not everyone will be "happy" in the situation they find themselves in.

If you are wondering if there could be a perfect world where everyone was happy AND had free will, i would emphatically tell you, "YES, THERE IS!" This is what heaven will be. We will be perfect. The new heavens and new earth will be perfect. Everyone will be happy. Everyone will be joyful. And we will all have free will. We will just always use our free will to serve and love others and the Lord instead of sometimes serving sin and evil as we do now.

But you said a perfect world would remove our free will.

Don't try to use hyperbole here. Not everyone is aching to rape, murder and pillage 24/7/365. You do not understand sin nature. We are all out for ourselves at different times. Some more than others. When you put yourself first, sin enters in and to some people it brings them to the extremes of rape, murder, etc. There are many times in your own life where you put yourself first.

Could we use "morality" as the word, instead of sin? It's a sin to have other gods before yours. It's a sin to work on Sundays, etc. And no, lack of morality does not follow automatically from thinking of oneself first. Least of all in a society. I dare say you're not thinking about this in evolutionary terms.

But again, you have no standard or compass. Yours changes with society. So in your society, if Hitler became the leader, you would have to agree with him that Jews are evil and we should kill them. If Osama Bin Laden became the leader of your society, you would have to agree with him that infidels are evil and we should bomb and kill them. And you can't say you would just leave the society, b/c what if that leader takes over the entire world? Would you just kill yourself? No, you would have to agree to whatever rules they set up. So again, you have no control over the rules and they can change as much as the wind or the waves.

Or I would rebell for what is right. Because I know what causes pain and suffering in a person and I want to avoid that. And you are in worse shape if God invents morality, and all you're doing is what he tells you. How is that a moral compass? I go by least amount of suffering as my compass.

All i am doing is taking your worldview to it's logical conclusion. Which is, in part, Nihilism. You can deny it all you want but then you are being illogical with your Atheism.

I take incredible offense at your statement that i see life as a door mat on my way to God's house. I don't know what Christians you have talked with and i'm extremely apologetic if i have come across this way. But Life on Earth is of EXTREME IMPORTANCE and should be given it's due respect, love and care. What we do here, for 70 or 80 years, we will take with us forever; some to eternal life and some to eternal death. Any Christian that tells you this life does not matter and they are just waiting to get to heaven is either not a Christian or has no understanding of Scripture and Jesus' life and commands.

No, you're not taking my worldview to its logical conclusion. First of all because you repeatedly show you don't understand it. By that I mean you don't understand how morality works on a behavior based way, you don't comprehend how life can be enjoyed without the promise of eternal bliss, and you think that simply asserting that the universe itself is evidence for a creator. That's your problem. You asked what the deal is, and I told you. Furthermore, even if I felt that everything was pointless, even if I thought there is no reasong to be good... reality is not dependent upon what I think would be nice or comfortable. The truth is not affected by what I would like to be true. I think it would be awesome if santa were real, but that doesn't make it so. One has to come to terms with what one has, and get on from there. And I remind you again, that eve though YOU can't understand my view, doesn't mean it is illogical or wrong.

And yes, your life is important, but only for getting into heaven. I don't think you should take offence so easily when after all, you have basically said I have no reason to live. I don't take it personally, so why are you taking it personally now that I retort with arguments against your view? Or at least the view of many christians.

Each day for me is infinitely more precious to me than your days are to you, b/c at the end of your life, you will receive the first death, as we all will, but then the reward for your unbelief will be the second death, something of which you will never recover. I on the other hand, will meet the first death as a doorway into the second life, which will last eternally. I will have rewards based on how i served Christ and they will never be taken away from me by theif or by moth. My days have meaning, whereas yours are but dust (as long as you stand as an island and hold on to your atheism).



Here again we differ on what is a long time. You consider 70 or 80 years a long time as opposed to 29 years. I laugh at both lengths as a passing of wind or the fading of grass. I consider 1,000,000,000,000,000 years to be the beginning of my adventure with the King. 80 years is but a thought. Here today and gone tomorrow. So, no, you have no advantage over that 29 year old. Whether you are 80 or 29, will anyone remember you in 100 years? in 1000 years? in 10,000 years? no. And when history ends, if you have not submitted to the Savior, you will even be forgotten by the Creator of All Things, which is the worst possible place to find yourself. Once He forgets you, you have no hope and no possible chance of joy ever again.

Time to show a contradiction in your mindset. In the two paragraphs above you first say that your days are infinitely more important to you than mine are to me. Ironically, you use a doorway simile, hehe.
In the next paragraph you say that decades are nothing compared to infinity. In other words, 80 years are nothing. So how can they be precious to you? 80 years is all I have, unless I get hit by a bus or something, and they are very precious to me. You from your POV have all of eternity to look forward to. That's what I mean by life on earth being a door mat for you to wipe your feet on. If your 80 years are a preparation to get into heaven, then that is basically saying that the 80 years here are meaningless in their joys, pains, etc. It's just the place you go to get a clean record for God.

You are speaking about an impossible scenario, so there is no need to respond. gods may say, "murder is now okay", but God doesn't change and is only Loving and Good. He will never say that murder is ok.

So you know the will of God. Wow, I've never been that confident. How do you know God won't say murder is okay? How is it impossible?

There are indigenous tribes in Africa where murder is an acceptable part of societal living. Have you ever heard of the Auca Indians in Ecuador? Prior to missionaries witnessing to them in the 1950's, murder was a DAILY occurence and an acceptable part of society. There are STILL tribes like this today.

I don't even need to go far to find a society that accepts murder. Look where you stand. If you are on American soil, European soil, Chinese soil, Canadian soil, Russion soil, etc, you can walk down the street and have your baby murdered. No questions. Just procedures. So now that our society accepts murder, you must too, regardless if you dislike the idea of crushing a baby's skull, or sucking them out with a vacuum or what have you. You must accept it b/c the society you associate yourself with does.

What's your information source that simply killing someone is a-okay in tribes in Ecuador?

Now, now. Abortions like that ONLY happen if the mother's life is at stake. Abortion as legalized is not murder unless scratching your nose is mass genicide. A 3 day old embryo is 150 cells give or take. Sam Harris has eloquently explained why abortion, although an important ethical discussion of course, is not murder from conception. But I think we can both agree to stay away from abortion and focus on general issues instead.

The reason you have no moral compass is b/c the measuring tool you are using is man, who will always change. If someone doesn't think that rape causes much suffering, they can rape. You can say that's preposterous, but there are sick people out there that believe it. Who are you to say they are wrong and you are right? Again, you will point to society but what if that person became the leader of your society? What if all the governing people had that sick of a mind? You would be out of luck and would have to accept Rape as a part of society.

Uhm, no I will point to the victim of the rape. One person THINKING that something doesn't cause suffering isn't what causes it to be a morally okay act. Being a moron would then be the moral goal, right? I'm not either of the opinion that popular vote determins what is moral and what is not. Was slavery okay a hundred years ago? No, it was just as big a moral attrocity then as now. You're putting the cart before the horse here. It is the fact that societies improve that they become more moral, that is, they decrease amount of suffering that the people go through. I can see how you could mix this up, and I agree, popular vote is not a basis of morality.

Neither is a dictator in the sky.

This is the most selfish viewpoint you can possible have. This is the pride that is keeping you from a saving relationship with Jesus. At some point, hopefully sooner rather than later, you will realize that your own hand patting yourself on your own back is not good enough.

Hm... as opposed to the pride that comes from thinking you're God's special guy whose existence is the reason there is a universe, and that this omnipotent creator loves and cares completely for you? Um, okay.

I'm trying to gauge how valuable this conversation is to continue. I would rather you just read A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism (1997) by Ravi Zacharias for a much better argument against Atheism, but i know you won't take the time to read such a book.

Your heart is hard and your ears are closed. There is not much i can do. We don't just disagree on our allegiances (mine, Christ; yours, yourself) but we disagree on most every single angle of viewing life.

If you promise to read the God Delusion, Letter to a Christian Nation, and Losing Faith in Faith, I promise to read A Shattered Visage.
My eyes are always open to the possibility of there being gods. All I need is a good reason. You on the other hand, I dare guess, won't for a second be open to the possibility of there not being gods. My allegiances are to myself and those whom I love. If you love christ, the same applies to you. Please be less judgemental, that is after all not your call, according to your book.

"Lord, please open Drosophila1's eyes, ears and heart to your Truth. Amen."
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That's very condascending, you know.

 

[andross77]

this is why internet debates are useless. you can type whatever you want and no one will concede anything. again, you have misinterpreted many things i've said. I'll pray for the softening of your heart. You don't understand God, life, creation or other important aspects of existence. I'm done with this thread. It's hard not to be angry at a person like you, but we are all fallen. I would be the same as you but for Grace. Have a good evening. Welcome to the forums. Enjoy debating in your other thread. I really wish i could sit down with you.

I do need to study more, so my answers are better. This thread has shown me that. I will also concede, from the evidence written in this thread, you are most likely smarter than i. Something you will never understand though is the Spirit communing with my spirit and guiding me to Truth. That is why i KNOW the things i say. I just need to study, read and learn so that i communicate the Truth better.

Grace be with you.

 

[Drosophila1]

I never implied that God would be tricked by someone PRETENDING to believe in Him. I never said that.

If I look at what is least risky for my eternal soul, wouldn't I have to pretend?

You can not or maybe i should say, should not, make these endless speculations or scenarios. Why? b/c they are not reasonable. You set up all these "gods" like they all have equal possibility which is just not true.

To shrug off the Christian God you have to shrug off 2 billion current believers, billions of believers in the past, tens of thousands of documents, tons of archeological evidences, arguments from logic, arguments from Creation, the list goes on.

The gods you describe do not have any of that support. So no, pascal's wager, has not been debunked by you there. Try again.

What do you think muslims are saying? The exact same thing as you. Jews? Yep, them too. But let's look at the evidence then.

2 billion current believers, billions of believers in the past: argumentum ad populum = invalid.

tens of thousands of documents:
documents? It was written so it must be true.

tons of archeological evidences:
I'm not sure what evidence you mean.


arguments from logic:
No philosophical argument applies more to the christian god than any other. And of what I have seen, like "god of gaps", the anthropological argument and such, none of them are any good.

arguments from Creation:
Which goes something like this: "I personally can't explain how this could have happened by natural processes, therefore God did it".
It is also not an argument in favour of one god in particular.

 

[Drosophila1]

this is why internet debates are useless. you can type whatever you want and no one will concede anything. again, you have misinterpreted many things i've said. I'll pray for the softening of your heart. You don't understand God, life, creation or other important aspects of existence. I'm done with this thread. It's hard not to be angry at a person like you, but we are all fallen. I would be the same as you but for Grace. Have a good evening. Welcome to the forums. Enjoy debating in your other thread. I really wish i could sit down with you.

I do need to study more, so my answers are better. This thread has shown me that. I will also concede, from the evidence written in this thread, you are most likely smarter than i. Something you will never understand though is the Spirit communing with my spirit and guiding me to Truth. That is why i KNOW the things i say. I just need to study, read and learn so that i communicate the Truth better.

Grace be with you.

I'm sorry to hear you don't wish to continue. I assure you I'm willing to believe in a god, IF I get good reason to. I just don't believe anything without good reason. But something you should perhaps be aware of in your last paragraph there.. You have the spirit of god, and therefore you know you're completely right about having the right viewpoint. This is circular reasoning. It's the same reasoning that justifies the bible really. God says he wrote the bible, therefore we can't doubt the bible saying God wrote it. See what I mean?

And just one final point. No one knows The truth 100%.