Atheism

[Eudaimonist]

Oranges aren't intoxicating and mind-altering that way.

You clearly haven't seen little children hopped up on sugar.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[mkatzwork]

You clearly haven't seen little children hopped up on sugar.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yeah - both are stimulants and both are addictive (the USA has large proportions of its population addicted to sugar, and if you don't agree with that, there's 70% of the population of Mississipi currently overweight or obese). So they're mind-altering in pretty much......exactly the same way.

"One is food" I heard mentioned earlier in the thread...so what? So are hash cakes, technically.

 

[createdtoworship]

One doesn't have to believe in "accountability to a higher power" to experience a motivation to exercise restraint. It's not like nontheists necessarily lack a conscience or moral compass.

I think you need to be very careful here. It may appear to you that if someone doesn't live by values from your particular subculture, that they don't restrain themselves. They may very well do this, but for the sake of other values.


eudaimonia,

Mark

values everyone has yes, but what morals are you accountable for?

 

[Eudaimonist]

values everyone has yes, but what morals are you accountable for?

All of them, every moment of every day, whether I am seen by others or not. I am never above the law of cause and effect. I can never escape the dynamic of my own existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

You clearly haven't seen little children hopped up on sugar.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Touche, but ...

 

[razeontherock]

"One is food" I heard mentioned earlier in the thread...so what?

Being obtuse does not promote any cause you might have.

 

[razeontherock]

All of them, every moment of every day, whether I am seen by others or not. I am never above the law of cause and effect. I can never escape the dynamic of my own existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Preach it! Seriously, there's a good portion of my fellow believers that indeed need to be confronted with this reality; and I'm not in much of a position to speak to it.

 

[createdtoworship]

All of them, every moment of every day, whether I am seen by others or not. I am never above the law of cause and effect. I can never escape the dynamic of my own existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

cause and effect can change as laws change as people become more liberal or conservative. So how can you say that the law of cause and effect is stable?

 

[Eudaimonist]

how can you say that the law of cause and effect is stable?

I'm a human being with a human nature. Cause and effect affect me as a human being with a human nature. This does not change.

The sort of changes you are talking about are trivial. Changes in who one is do not have a deep effect on what one is. My values may change, but my nature does not.

There would be an element of hubris if I were to think that I could become something other than human simply by changing my worldview.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[createdtoworship]

Changes in who one is do not have a deep effect on what one is. My values may change, but my nature does not.

by nature you mean fallen nature?

If so I agree.

But if you mean something good.

then I would disagree because our nature may change when things in our life changes.

much harder to keep a good nature than a bad one.

 

[KCfromNC]

cause and effect can change as laws change as people become more liberal or conservative. So how can you say that the law of cause and effect is stable?

If something isn't true, why would it be a virtue to claim that it is? Likewise, if it's obvious that morals change why would it be a good thing to pretend that they don't?

 

[Eudaimonist]

by nature you mean fallen nature?

No, I don't think in such terms. I mean human nature.

much harder to keep a good nature than a bad one.

I'll agree there.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[razeontherock]

by nature you mean fallen nature?

If so I agree.

But if you mean something good.

then I would disagree because our nature may change when things in our life changes.

much harder to keep a good nature than a bad one.

Surely you recognize our atheist philosopher doesn't adhere to the idea of "fallen nature?" By that, do you mean born with an image marred by sin, or do you mean the total depravity taught by Calvin?

 

[createdtoworship]

Surely you recognize our atheist philosopher doesn't adhere to the idea of "fallen nature?" By that, do you mean born with an image marred by sin, or do you mean the total depravity taught by Calvin?

yeah I thought I would bring it up just in case. But just a simple fallen nature not (tulip).

 

[createdtoworship]

If something isn't true, why would it be a virtue to claim that it is? Likewise, if it's obvious that morals change why would it be a good thing to pretend that they don't?

the law of cause and effect changes and we become more or less moral all the time. Unless there is some moral law to follow. Even then we only compare to it, not meet it.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, I don't think in such terms. I mean human nature.



I'll agree there.


eudaimonia,

Mark

so we agree that the law of cause and effect is not stable? Because it changes as we change. Unless we compare to a solid non movable moral standard which you probably don't believe in.

 

[Eudaimonist]

so we agree that the law of cause and effect is not stable?

No, we don't agree on that point.

Because it changes as we change.

It doesn't change. We change as we change. This might seem to be nitpicking words, but I think it is an important point.

We don't change so very much that we become unhuman, so any causality that applies to us as human individuals can be counted on to happen. Yes, we may change in terms of our degree of virtue, but this doesn't excuse us from the need for moral character.

Unless we compare to a solid non movable moral standard which you probably don't believe in.

Why probably?

I think that for reasonable intents and purposes the moral standard for human beings is solid and non-moving.

I personally don't live my life with the expectation that the moral standard will move just for me, and just because I happen to adopt different values.

we become more or less moral all the time.

Something like that.

Unless there is some moral law to follow.

There is a natural moral standard to apply.

Even then we only compare to it, not meet it.

Yes, that's what one does with a standard. One uses it as a basis for comparison. A standard is used to make a measurement.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[KCfromNC]

the law of cause and effect changes and we become more or less moral all the time. Unless there is some moral law to follow. Even then we only compare to it, not meet it.

Proof of these claims?

 

[createdtoworship]

Proof of these claims?

what do you mean, proof that we are not moral creatures?

 

[madaz]

what do you mean, proof that we are not moral creatures?

I think he means "proof" that the philosophical concept of "cause and effect" can change.
Morality itself is subjective.