Atheism

The conscious/subconscious debate is interesting, and thanks for making the distinction. It's the sort of thing that leads to the statement "There are no atheists in the trenches" for example.

Many will consciously affirm disbelief, but some of those will call on God when times get hard. This doesn't take away from their intellectual understanding, but might indicate the effects of millenia of cultural belief, or even the "hard-wiring" which some belief causes all cultures to seek God or gods. I write as an atheist of 11 years, now Christian.

The conscious/subconscious debate is interesting, and thanks for making the distinction. It's the sort of thing that leads to the statement "There are no atheists in the trenches" for example.

Many will consciously affirm disbelief, but some of those will call on God when times get hard. This doesn't take away from their intellectual understanding, but might indicate the effects of millenia of cultural belief, or even the "hard-wiring" which some belief causes all cultures to seek God or gods. I write as an atheist of 11 years, now Christian.

crimsonleaf said:

The conscious/subconscious debate is interesting, and thanks for making the distinction. It's the sort of thing that leads to the statement "There are no atheists in the trenches" for example.

Many will consciously affirm disbelief, but some of those will call on God when times get hard. This doesn't take away from their intellectual understanding, but might indicate the effects of millenia of cultural belief, or even the "hard-wiring" which some belief causes all cultures to seek God or gods. I write as an atheist of 11 years, now Christian.

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I'm glad you like it.

I'm, pretty much convinced that my subconsciousness requires consideration. In the past I had to take an math exam and I was pretty good at it, but one problem I couldn't solve. My cousin was good in math too, he was much older than me and he managed to find solution to the problem pretty soon using university level maths. That didn't suit me, as I was supposed to find solution with my level of math. So the night before the exam I went to bed worried about it. At midnight I wake up with the solution in my head. I have solved it while I was sleeping. Now that is pretty much something deserving respect, and I'll be never able to deny that part of me.

Upisoft said:

It is not that simple. In this case one has conscious belief that one can't fly. Or IOW, the conscious belief database in his mind reads:
1) I can't fly.
///end

If that person has the opposite statement in his subconscious belief database:
1) I can fly.
///end

This person will have very serious mental condition.

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What very serious mental condition?

You had a dream during which you believed that you could fly. So what?


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

What very serious mental condition?


eudaimonia,

Mark

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You should ask a specialist for the name, but it is basically existence of contradictory beliefs and you are jumping from one to another without being able to make definite decision. Usually the subconscious part shows itself as a feeling like fear, etc.

Well, probably such 'mindlock' is rare, but still the person would make the decisions he/she makes struggling with them.

Eudaimonist said:

You had a dream during which you believed that you could fly. So what?

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Yes I had, while the conscious mind sleeps, there is no conflict.

Upisoft said:

You should ask a specialist for the name, but it is basically existence of contradictory beliefs and you are jumping from one to another without being able to make definite decision.

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You are probably thinking of cognitive dissonance. Do you have cognitive dissonance regarding the issue of atheism versus theism? Do you feel that you waver back and forth between the two in your conscious life?


eudaimonia,

Mark

crimsonleaf said:

The conscious/subconscious debate is interesting, and thanks for making the distinction. It's the sort of thing that leads to the statement "There are no atheists in the trenches" for example.

Many will consciously affirm disbelief, but some of those will call on God when times get hard. This doesn't take away from their intellectual understanding, but might indicate the effects of millenia of cultural belief, or even the "hard-wiring" which some belief causes all cultures to seek God or gods. I write as an atheist of 11 years, now Christian.

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But then you would also have to consider "There are no christians in the trenches".
Because if they really believed there was a god looking out for them they wouldnt be putting a wall of dirt between them and enemy fire, so subconciously they dont believe there is a god. Even when they conciously affirm belief, when there is risk they will abandon it quickly and take cover.

crimsonleaf said:

It's the sort of thing that leads to the statement "There are no atheists in the trenches" for example.

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IMV, even those atheists that call out to God for help when faced with mortal danger are, in fact, atheists.

When people are terrified and in a panic, they aren't in their right minds. That opens them up to old mental habits that have nothing to do with their actual beliefs and convictions. What happens is almost like a reflex action, not something that draws upon the totality of their minds. It is likely that they will not engage in any more religious behavior after they have calmed down and sanity has asserted itself once again.

So, we need not be too concerned with what happens when people are asleep, or when they are in a panic, or any similar situation where the full functioning of the mind isn't present. One may well say that one was gripped by "temporary insanity".


eudaimonia,

Mark

Exiledoomsayer said:

But then you would also have to consider "There are no christians in the trenches".
Because if they really believed there was a god looking out for them they wouldnt be putting a wall of dirt between them and enemy fire, so subconciously they dont believe there is a god. Even when they conciously affirm belief, when there is risk they will abandon it quickly and take cover.

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Not a brilliant argument is it? Do you think that Christians think that God makes them bullet-proof? Try and think an argument through to it's logical conclusion.

Whether Christians should be in a trench in the first place is another discussion, and thankfully not one we're having now. But as a Christian I can categorically assure you that when I look both ways before crossing the road it's not through a lack of faith.

crimsonleaf said:

Not a brilliant argument is it? Do you think that Christians think that God makes them bullet-proof? Try and think an argument through to it's logical conclusion.

Whether Christians should be in a trench in the first place is another discussion, and thankfully not one we're having now. But as a Christian I can categorically assure you that when I look both ways before crossing the road it's not through a lack of faith.

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I see you already got the point, excellent.

Yes neither of the 'trench' arguements are brilliant(I'd go so far as to say that they are stupid), I figured it would be easier to show that by reversing the arguement.

crimsonleaf said:

Not a brilliant argument is it? Do you think that Christians think that God make
But as a Christian I can categorically assure you that when I look both ways before crossing the road it's not through a lack of faith.

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...Depending on your definition of "assure." You can tell me with certainty, but you can't make me sure of it.

Assuming you subscribe the popular notion of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being, if you look both ways you're behaving as if no such entity exists. Whether or not you'd like to admit it has no bearing.

Now on the other hand, if you're one of those rare people who believes in a less extreme god who's existence isn't so directly in conflict with reality... maybe you actually believe in it.

Personally I define my atheism like this: As to say that there is no proof for the core claim of many religions, that of the existence of some godly being, but also, more interestingly, due to the vague and unsubstantial nature of the most common form of the god-concept (that I have heard, anyway), you cannot even know what the proof would look like.

Said this in another thread, but, for example, if someone made the claim to me that the planets move according to the formula first given by Newton [Fg = (G * m1 * m2 ) / r^2], I could manipulate that information to tell them what would be evidence for that claim, what might prove it, and what would contradict it.

So, in summary, it's more than there just being no proof, it's that there's not even a way to tell what a proof would look like.

Saying that, you'd probably class me as a weak or agnostic atheist.

Matariki said:

Recently I have become fascinated by Atheism and Atheistic philosophy.
I want to ask you guys (the Atheist community here) what should Christians know about Atheism?

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Just a proper definition is all that is needed. It is up to the Christian to be fair in their perception of atheists.

Are you a weak Atheist or strong Atheist in your terms of views?

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I will answer this with explaining an experience. I once dated a girl who told me, "I wish you were more anti." My response was pretty much along the lines of...how much more can I disbelieve? She is a Muslim now and I am still a non-believer.

What are your opinions on strong Atheism or weak Atheism?

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Pointless. Kind of like Ayn Rand making up a philosophical school of thought based on humans being selfish...really? It is tedious...too much. Same feeling about the whole weak vs. strong type of talk.

What are your opinions on Religion?

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I disagree with the claims that religion has about existence.

What are your opinions on some of the more famous figures in Atheism today? E.g. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Micheal Shermer, Stephen Hawkings, Peter Atkins, Sam Harris.

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Christopher Hitchens was and will be my favorite. He will be missed.
The rest of the public intellectuals in this area, they have their points and I like things they say but they never did it for me like listening to Hitchens.

Stephen Hawkings...brilliant scientist and great contributions to the world of science and under what he faces with his physical disabilities, the things he has accomplished is amazing. Dawkins is my least favorite of the bunch but I will not undermine his contributions to science. Sam Harris, and Micheal Shermer...I like but they are like the fleeting interests for me with those public intellectuals. I do enjoy Shermer's Skeptic magazine from time to time. Peter Atkins I don't know too much about.

Have you ever experienced any discrimination for being an Atheist?

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To some degree. When my father compared my secular views to that of Stalin, it was one of the most hurtful things that has ever been said to me. Him and another person said things that have hurt me the most. However, I suppose our ways are being mended as time progresses. We have bigger problems than that statement.

My current girlfriend is a Christian and her church has done some nasty things to her as far as I am concerned. I honestly could careless what they say about me for I have heard much worse. When I hear her cry on the phone because of what they did and what they say, it angers me.

Overall though, the few things I have experienced is quite, quite, quite, quite light so if I would judge on a percentage, I would say 98 percent of the time, I am not discriminated because of my lack of beliefs in gods. Now I also could have missed the discrimination. I don't care if people don't like the fact that I don't believe. I care more about eating good food, drinking good beer, my family, my friends, my love life, my job, my hobbies, my lusts, music, my beard and just living a the best life that I can.

Eudaimonist said:

You are probably thinking of cognitive dissonance. Do you have cognitive dissonance regarding the issue of atheism versus theism? Do you feel that you waver back and forth between the two in your conscious life?


eudaimonia,

Mark

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Nah, I have no statement about existence of God in my conscious mind. Thus there is nothing that will make me experience this kind of oscillation. But, what I'm trying to say is, if there is such statement in my subconscious mind then it fully defines me. Thus until I don't know what that statement could be, I can't (as I have respect of my subconsciousness) define myself as anything specific.

Im_A said:

Kind of like Ayn Rand making up a philosophical school of thought based on humans being selfish...really?

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Not to derail this thread, but Ayn Rand was not an advocate of psychological egoism. She didn't think that human beings were "selfish", only that they could act in a rationally and justifiably self-interested fashion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Upisoft said:

But, what I'm trying to say is, if there is such statement in my subconscious mind then it fully defines me. Thus until I don't know what that statement could be, I can't (as I have respect of my subconsciousness) define myself as anything specific.

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Okay. I think I understand your position. I would just say that it doesn't really matter how your "subconscious mind" views anything on this issue. That doesn't define a belief-status, since that implies conscious belief.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Eudaimonist said:

Okay. I think I understand your position. I would just say that it doesn't really matter how your "subconscious mind" views anything on this issue. That doesn't define a belief-status, since that implies conscious belief.

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I had enough cases when my "subconscious mind" did matter, I've told about only one case. Based on experience, I believe my "subconscious mind" matter. Your "subconscious mind" may well do not matter, that's you who will make that decision, not me.

Eudaimonist said:

Not to derail this thread, but Ayn Rand was not an advocate of psychological egoism. She didn't think that human beings were "selfish", only that they could act in a rationally and justifiably self-interested fashion.


eudaimonia,

Mark

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Again...tedious and nothing more as far as I am concerned.

Upisoft said:

Indeed, but since my subconsciousness may disagree with my consciousness I do not tend to claim that I'm an atheist. I am not only my conscious part. I know my subconsciousness can have its own decisions. It would be not fair to put labels on me that may disagree with that part of me.

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What does your subconscious believe?

Also, even if your subconscious was a theist, that wouldn't make you an agnostic.