Atheism is reasonable, and Christianity is not

Quid est Veritas?

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All words are subjective. It’s why several of us keep mentioning that we don’t care if disgruntled theists don’t like how we define atheism, focus on our statements about what our positions are.
I would love to focus on the statements of the positions, but this is rendered unclear if we do not understand words in the same manner. Language only works if a shared framework of meaning exists, which is mostly context-driven. If you define Atheism differently than its traditional definition, fine, but then this needs to be made clear in all debates or the word ommitted entirely. As things stand, it seems as if most interlocutors jump between the traditional meaning and the neologious one as needed, leaving its use inconsistent, incoherent and confusing; and being so subtlely different, it takes some effort to contextually tease these variant uses apart.
 
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KCfromNC

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Are you sure that in the case of defining atheism, you atheists haven't gone so overboard in paring down and reducing your definition(s) of atheism that the finer rational distinctions existing between each of you haven't been obliterated? :rolleyes:

Yes. Thanks for asking, though.

If the word 'atheism' is subjective (and it is)

I smell category error. What does it mean for a word to be subjective? Does that even make sense?
 
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KCfromNC

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Then, are you going to tell Peter Boghossian that his insistence upon the use of a Foundationalist framework for a person's epistemic evaluation of "faith" is just a bit of "stamp-collecting" and that it is really unneeded?

More name dropping about random people who have opinions about philosophical topics? That kinda supports my point.
 
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KCfromNC

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Well, if you do a scientific experiment, all involved agree on certain points like Empiricism and Realism.

All scientists are realists? Seems like an interesting claim. Can you prove it to be correct?

So their subjective data, being in accord with it, would be agreed on. It need not be, as look how often eyewitnesses recount different events.

Yes, some claims are subjective in nature. Glad you agree with my point that there are different categories of claims and that the word objective refers to a subset of them.

Similarly we cannot determine if one person's perception of 'Green' say, is the same as another's, for although we can measure lightwaves, the perceptions cannot be shown equivalent.

Neither can we show how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Some ideas are just badly constructed.

The fact is that spiritual intersubjective experience have factors in common, is consistent between certain individuals - hence Religions exist. If it was not, then having mystic literature and books like Spirutual Exercises or Imitation of Christ would make little sense, nor shared liturgies.
We even see commonalities between religions, like Thomas Merton the Trappist monk's experience accords so well with the Buddhist of non-duality or Sufi experience of God.

These can easily be explained by the experience of reading the books or talking to people instead of directly experience the claimed shared reality.
 
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KCfromNC

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I would love to focus on the statements of the positions, but this is rendered unclear if we do not understand words in the same manner.

This can be fixed if one just listens to what people tell you about themselves rather than trying to explain to them what their position really is.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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More name dropping about random people who have opinions about philosophical topics? That kinda supports my point.

Yes, more name dropping. Especially since Peter B. is an atheist. But from your response, I guess his teaching is 'lost' on you.

On second thought, maybe that's a good thing.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yes. Thanks for asking, though.



I smell category error. What does it mean for a word to be subjective? Does that even make sense?

It's not a category error. It means that you guys don't know what kind of definition you have, AND you guys use a term that is so reduced that it doesn't imply that it has much, if any, ties to the rest of your individual epistemic framework, frameworks which also seem to be non-evident in your minds.

In fact, I'm wondering how you guys know when you've justified a claim to knowledge or truth since you guys also don't seem to be much better off than Christians are in this regard.

What kind of definition do you guys think you have for the term, "atheism"? It's not quite clear what the intension or extension of your term really applies to.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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All scientists are realists? Seems like an interesting claim. Can you prove it to be correct?
No, I assume all scientists aren't strict realists; but to do Experiments of Scientific value, requires you to ascribe to underlying assumptions, one of which is probably that results you obtain reflect something actual.

Yes, some claims are subjective in nature. Glad you agree with my point that there are different categories of claims and that the word objective refers to a subset of them.
Objective is not a subset of Subjective. Perhaps you fail to understand the concept of an Antonym?
Neither can we show how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Some ideas are just badly constructed.
Ok, so in your view Science should not investigate Consciousness or Human Perception?

These can easily be explained by the experience of reading the books or talking to people instead of directly experience the claimed shared reality.
As can Scientific claims of 'shared reality' - in fact we ARE taught them in school and from books. However, completely separate religious traditions from all historical human groups, recording surprisingly similar experience, suggests sussurations of the same phenomenon.
To paraphrase Lewis: Why would we experience desires for something that does not exist, as usually desires are able to be at least temporarily filled, like water for thirst, etc.? The idea of disavowing spiritual experience entirely or simply thinking it cultural, is a very weak argument.

People aren't natural empiricists, as experiment has shown as well. Talk to any child and you'll see this to be the case. This is why philosophy first had to come along to invent Empiricism and later Science in the first place.
 
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variant

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To paraphrase Lewis: Why would we experience desires for something that does not exist, as usually desires are able to be at least temporarily filled, like water for thirst, etc.? The idea of disavowing spiritual experience entirely or simply thinking it cultural, is a very weak argument.

It's also a weak argument that people having psychological needs requires reality to align with them.

Religion is perfectly free to be a natural byproduct of human consciousness without implying any accuracy of religious claims.
 
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KCfromNC

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Yes, more name dropping. Especially since Peter B. is an atheist. But from your response, I guess his teaching is 'lost' on you.

On second thought, maybe that's a good thing.

If you say so. I guess if there was anything of substance there to discuss you'd bring it up rather than whatever it is your post is.
 
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KCfromNC

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you guys use a term that is so reduced that it doesn't imply that it has much, if any, ties to the rest of your individual epistemic framework

Hey, you're finally getting it. I don't know why people get so worked up about a definition accurately describing the common traits of the group it is trying to define.

In fact, I'm wondering how you guys know when you've justified a claim to knowledge
or truth

Depends on which "guy" you're talking to. As long as the system doesn't require belief in gods, atheists can subscribe to pretty much any epistemology.

since you guys also don't seem to be much better off than Christians are in this regard.

Yes, we're all kinda stuck due to philosophy's failure to provide answers to the subjects it claims to study.

What kind of definition do you guys think you have for the term, "atheism"?

One which accurately describes atheists.
 
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KCfromNC

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No, I assume all scientists aren't strict realists; but to do Experiments of Scientific value, requires you to ascribe to underlying assumptions, one of which is probably that results you obtain reflect something actual.

Probably? I smell backtracking.

Objective is not a subset of Subjective.

I don't know why you'd think it was.

Ok, so in your view Science should not investigate Consciousness or Human Perception?

Again, not sure why you'd think that.

As can Scientific claims of 'shared reality'

In some cases, yes. But unlike other systems, it isn't limited to only that approach.

To paraphrase Lewis: Why would we experience desires for something that does not exist, as usually desires are able to be at least temporarily filled, like water for thirst, etc.?

Do people really find these kind of questions convincing? Seriously, is this supposed to appeal to people who have never enjoyed a work of fiction or something? Seems like a really small target market.

People aren't natural empiricists, as experiment has shown as well. Talk to any child and you'll see this to be the case. This is why philosophy first had to come along to invent Empiricism and later Science in the first place.

Yeah, I get it. Everything anyone has every done or thought or not done or not thought is philosophy.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Probably? I smell backtracking.



I don't know why you'd think it was.



Again, not sure why you'd think that.



In some cases, yes. But unlike other systems, it isn't limited to only that approach.



Do people really find these kind of questions convincing? Seriously, is this supposed to appeal to people who have never enjoyed a work of fiction or something? Seems like a really small target market.



Yeah, I get it. Everything anyone has every done or thought or not done or not thought is philosophy.
I see no serious attempt at discussing the topics raised. I see no need to engage flippancy. Good day, sir.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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It's also a weak argument that people having psychological needs requires reality to align with them.

Religion is perfectly free to be a natural byproduct of human consciousness without implying any accuracy of religious claims.
I agree. There is no reason religion's claims need be accurate. Likewise though, I see no reason why this need be the case for human inference in general, so if we take that track, we do not have to acknowledge essential accuracy of any human form of knowledge, including of course those empirically derived. So Religion's position is really on par.

The 'byproduct' argument I find unlikely though. Nature does not seem in the practice of having massive accidental systems that are non-functional. Religion played a major part in human endeavour and often to the detriment of the organic being - such as martyrdoms or fasting or celibacy. The fact of human spirituality is undeniable. In animals, when we see them being colourblind or whatnot, or a certain behaviour like polygamy or infanticide, we look for a modernistic teleological explanation why this trait would survive or be selected for - hunting improvement or reproductive success, say. It is simply facile to write such complex behaviour as religion off as 'byproduct' from both anthropological and naturalistic ends, although it does allow the confirmation bias of assuming it does not correlate with reality-testing. Seems more baby out with the bathwater to me.
 
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I agree. There is no reason religion's claims need be accurate. Likewise though, I see no reason why this need be the case for human inference in general, so if we take that track, we do not have to acknowledge essential accuracy of any human form of knowledge, including of course those empirically derived. So Religion's position is really on par.

You seem to have just gone down a series of statements that don't follow.

All of human inference is not logically wrong because there is no reason to believe that human desires dictate reality.

The 'byproduct' argument I find unlikely though. Nature does not seem in the practice of having massive accidental systems that are non-functional. Religion played a major part in human endeavour and often to the detriment of the organic being - such as martyrdoms or fasting or celibacy. The fact of human spirituality is undeniable. In animals, when we see them being colourblind or whatnot, or a certain behaviour like polygamy or infanticide, we look for a modernistic teleological explanation why this trait would survive or be selected for - hunting improvement or reproductive success, say. It is simply facile to write such complex behaviour as religion off as 'byproduct' from both anthropological and naturalistic ends, although it does allow the confirmation bias of assuming it does not correlate with reality-testing. Seems more baby out with the bathwater to me.

The basic desire for greater meaning and spirituality would be the byproduct of the conscious and self aware brain which has obvious benefits.

That those things could be "worked in" is indeed obvious, because there is plenty of evidence for it, but it would not mean they aren't a byproduct of the consciousness.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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You seem to have just gone down a series of statements that don't follow.

All of human inference is not logically wrong because there is no reason to believe that human desires dictate reality.
Please read what I write. I did not establish any form of causality based on human desires. What I did say was that Religion is inference drawn from human spiritual experience, spiritual qualia. Likewise, other things humans believe, other inferences, are drawn based on other qualia, such as our perceived sense-data - again not really substantiated beyond intersubjectivity. None of these inferences inherently have to be true. Thus to assume one reflects reality and exclude another, is not entirely sound, based merely on these inferences themselves. Human desires have nothing to with anything here, for I can argue Naturalistic views are built merely on human desire for consistency and mechanistic explanation. The situation is really not so different as you seem to think.

The basic desire for greater meaning and spirituality would be the byproduct of the conscious and self aware brain which has obvious benefits.

That those things could be "worked in" is indeed obvious, because there is plenty of evidence for it, but it would not mean they aren't a byproduct of the consciousness.
Why are they a byproduct and not consciousness the byproduct? This is merely a set of confirmation bias based ideas. Why is a conscious and self-aware brain of 'obvious benefit' - how do you establish that? You are assuming because we are self-aware, it is of benefit, but simple response systems work perfectly well for most life. You are assuming that because it is there, it must have evolved, and is therefore of benefit - and then arbitrarily assigning teleological purpose to it that we haven't really established, and then excluding related phenomena on fairly specious grounds. I see no fundamental reason why it has to be seen in this manner, and based on the parsimony of natural systems elsewhere, every reason why it need not be.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No one has objective data on anything. All human data is subjective. Even observation is the subjective data of those observers, with others merely trusting them on it. This would be no different than the subjective experience of the spiritual and others trusting that it had occurred.

False.

The observation of a length, temperature, etc is common among all people and can be repeated by all people.

And it is not dependend on your geographic location, your culture, your upbringing, your religion,....

Your "spiritual" experiences clearly are.

If two observe or two have spiritual experiences, they weave a inter-subjective agreement, but it is still not objective per se - so this is as much the problem of any materialist as well.

Funny how atheists, christians and muslims can independently from one another measure the length if a specific object and agree completely with eachother, but can not do the same when it concerns their "spiritual experiences".
 
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DogmaHunter

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I agree. There is no reason religion's claims need be accurate. Likewise though, I see no reason why this need be the case for human inference in general, so if we take that track, we do not have to acknowledge essential accuracy of any human form of knowledge, including of course those empirically derived. So Religion's position is really on par.

I love how you, instead of trying to raise the credibility of religion to get it on par with empirical science, you are actually trying to do the opposit: discredit empirical science to get it down to the same level of religion.


The 'byproduct' argument I find unlikely though. Nature does not seem in the practice of having massive accidental systems that are non-functional.

Superstition is rather common in the animal kingdom.
There's this famous, rather old, experiment which demonstrated even pigeons to have superstitious tendencies.

It's pure psychology. Surival instincts that make us prone to engaging in the cognition error being "the false positive". The infamous simplistic example being "you hear a sound in the bushes... is it just the wind, or is it a dangerous predator?". As an animal who is also a prey for dangerous predators, simple survival instinct will make you infuse agency in that noise.
Creatures that simply assume this agency, run like hell. The others sit tight and "investigate" or "gather more data" to find out what the noise is. These are also the ones that die, if the noise indeed was a dangerous predator.

Couple that with our instinctive need to see patterns everywhere - to the point of even inventing patterns where there really aren't any,....

And you have all the ingredients you need for humans to invent religions out of thin air. In some sense, it almost becomes inevitable that religions get invented.

Religion played a major part in human endeavour and often to the detriment of the organic being - such as martyrdoms or fasting or celibacy. The fact of human spirituality is undeniable. In animals, when we see them being colourblind or whatnot, or a certain behaviour like polygamy or infanticide, we look for a modernistic teleological explanation why this trait would survive or be selected for - hunting improvement or reproductive success, say. It is simply facile to write such complex behaviour as religion off as 'byproduct' from both anthropological and naturalistic ends, although it does allow the confirmation bias of assuming it does not correlate with reality-testing. Seems more baby out with the bathwater to me.

As it turns out, that is not correct.

What you see as "very complex behaviour as religion", really comes down to quite simple things... The false positive, primarily.

The "complexity" of religion, is really just the result of thousands of years of developping the lore of the religions. It comes as no surprise to me either that we have so many so vastly different religions, in that context.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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False.

The observation of a length, temperature, etc is common among all people and can be repeated by all people.

And it is not dependend on your geographic location, your culture, your upbringing, your religion,....

Your "spiritual" experiences clearly are.



Funny how atheists, christians and muslims can independently from one another measure the length if a specific object and agree completely with eachother, but can not do the same when it concerns their "spiritual experiences".
What are you talking about? Have you ever heard of Relativity Theory? Length Contraction? Science doesn't even teach that two individuals can measure the same length exactly equivalently, as movement and speed alters the perception thereof, and we are all constantly in movement, even moving with respect to what we are measuring the length of, when we measure. Granted it is assumed to be minute when not approaching the speed of light, but it really isn't objective. Same goes for temperature on other grounds.

Also, they are highly cultural. Ever heard of the Metric system? Imperial Measurements? Feet and El? Not to mention the assumptions that need to be made of consistency and that something actual is being measured. Mahayana Buddhists would see what was measured as Void, Illusion, as would Eleatics. It really is not universal by a long shot, but requires similar axioms be held.

That is anyway not what I am talking about, but that these measurements are qualia, fragments of human experience themselves,that are only intersubjectively shared, but not shared in an objective actual sense. Also, I just gave examples where religious activity showed the same type of experience in common, such as Sufis, Trapist Monks and Zen Buddhists, which you just ignore.

I love how you, instead of trying to raise the credibility of religion to get it on par with empirical science, you are actually trying to do the opposit: discredit empirical science to get it down to the same level of religion.
What a decidedly odd way of looking at it. Tell me, do you measure your burger-making abilities by how good you are at bathing? Or do we test a mathematical proposition by the rules of Rugby?
Nothing is juxtaposed to anything else or taken down or up. It is apples vs rocks. Metaphysics against methodologic naturalism.


Superstition is rather common in the animal kingdom.
There's this famous, rather old, experiment which demonstrated even pigeons to have superstitious tendencies.
Anthropomorphisation at its finest, not to mention begging the question. Citation?

If your talking about Skinner, that shows attempts at pattern recognition, similar to Science I suppose, that also seeks repeatable patterns to account for phenomena. So, a form of Superstition in your mind, then?
It's pure psychology. Surival instincts that make us prone to engaging in the cognition error being "the false positive". The infamous simplistic example being "you hear a sound in the bushes... is it just the wind, or is it a dangerous predator?". As an animal who is also a prey for dangerous predators, simple survival instinct will make you infuse agency in that noise.
Creatures that simply assume this agency, run like hell. The others sit tight and "investigate" or "gather more data" to find out what the noise is. These are also the ones that die, if the noise indeed was a dangerous predator.

Couple that with our instinctive need to see patterns everywhere - to the point of even inventing patterns where there really aren't any,....

And you have all the ingredients you need for humans to invent religions out of thin air. In some sense, it almost becomes inevitable that religions get invented.



As it turns out, that is not correct.

What you see as "very complex behaviour as religion", really comes down to quite simple things... The false positive, primarily.

The "complexity" of religion, is really just the result of thousands of years of developping the lore of the religions. It comes as no surprise to me either that we have so many so vastly different religions, in that context.
This is just supposition. There is really no support for these statements beyond conjecture. Quite disingenuous, as if the great complexities of human religion, from Neoplatonists down to Buddhists to Christianity, could all be boiled down to sussurations. Again, begging the question to write it off as false positives without any real reason to do so. I could say Empiricism is a structure of false positives by equal measure, as all activity derived therefrom, I could just call "centuries of developing lore" thereof. After all, the whole point of a false positive is its establishment via its utility (even though untrue) - the latter being the premiere claim Naturalists try to ascribe for Empiricism alone as a form of reality testing.
 
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What are you talking about? Have you ever heard of Relativity Theory? Length Contraction? Science doesn't even teach that two individuals can measure the same length exactly equivalently, as movement and speed alters the perception thereof, and we are all constantly in movement, even moving with respect to what we are measuring the length of, when we measure. Granted it is assumed to be minute when not approaching the speed of light, but it really isn't objective. Same goes for temperature on other grounds.
I read a news article about a mathematician / theoretical physicist who had a model where in some reference frames an event does happen and in other reference frames an event doesn't happen. Assuming that model is correct then relativity goes beyond stretching of attributes. However, I don't know if that idea was later discredited or not. (I enjoy reading articles like that, but I don't understand them usually. I'm sure that was the case with this article too.)
 
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