Atheism is reasonable, and Christianity is not

2PhiloVoid

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I'm going to need a bit more explanation, since we're not really talking about about binary positions.

The point I'm trying to make is that while one can have an agnostic position in relation to the gumballs in the machine, and the 'gnostic' counterpart also can be seen as not having any better of a position to know the number of gumballs, in the case of atheists and Christians, the latter are saying that due to certain epistemic factors which come as a part of an appropriate aesthetic response toward the God who 'reveals', they are in a better vantage point to gain knowledge, or at least gain further insights, into the existence of God.

So, in effect, Christians are claiming that not only do they have 'help' to decide, they are also claiming (or should be if they know their Bible) that at least some agnostic non-believers do not have the same divine help, and moreover, this same God may also work to prevent some overly antagonistic non-believers from moving to a more knowledgeable position.

And if this is the case, this epistemic string pulling by God would cripple the Gumball Machine analogy since God is not a passive bystander in the belief process on either side.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Matt Dillahunty has clarified the atheist position with the following gumball analogy, which I have paraphrased:

Suppose there exists a gumball machine, and we don't know how many gumballs are inside it. If you told me that there were an even number of gumballs in the machine, then I would reject your assertion. Your assertion is rejected on the grounds of insufficient evidence, and I am not claiming that there is an odd number of gumballs. The fact of the matter is that we don't know and can't know how many gumballs there are, and so any positive assertion is unreasonable.

This is why most atheists are the "lack of belief" type of atheist. Some of these atheists might positively assert that Jehovah cannot exist, but this is usually because of the fact that Jehovah is often saddled with self-contradictory properties. Make Jehovah's properties self-consistent, and most atheists will not positively assert that he does not exist.

Those atheists who do assert that no gods exist are (hopefully) operating under the null hypothesis. For example, we might say that adding racing stripes to a vehicle will not make it go faster. This is not a declaration that experiments have been performed to conclude this, but rather that, by the null hypothesis, this is the default position. So, in that sense, when atheists say that there are no gods, they are (hopefully) speaking formally under the null hypothesis.

If an atheist were to say that there are definitively, absolutely, positively no gods, then they would be unreasonable. For if they were not saying this under the umbrella of the null hypothesis, then they must be declaring it as some conclusion. But most of us can agree that there is no argument which will soundly and validly conclude that there are positively no gods.

But now that we've clarified this, we should turn our attention to the Christian and see that they are unreasonable. The vast majority of theistic arguments are only suited to advance deism, which allows for the existence of one, many, or infinitely many deities. While all of these arguments are flawed, they are at least deductive, whereas Christian-specific arguments are rarely, if ever, deductive. Proving to the satisfaction of an atheist that Jesus rose from the dead does not definitively disprove the existence of Zeus or Thor.

So if a Christian cannot argue beyond the existence of potentially many generic deities, then - just like the atheist - the Christian would be unreasonable to positively assert that Zeus, Thor, and the countless other deities definitively do not exist. Yet, Christian creed demands that this declarative statement is made.

Even if the Christian were to successfully prove the existence of a supreme deity, there is nothing that can be done to show lesser deities do not exist. And gods like Thor certainly are lesser deities, since they are not said to be omnipotent or omniscient. Their existence cannot be disproved.

This means that Christianity is fundamentally unreasonable. Christianity cannot be defended logically, but must be believed by faith. And faith is not a path to the truth: just look no further than Islam.

I think what is really going on is that, despite whatever epistemological construct atheists or Christians decide to choose, atheists tend to lean more toward an Internalist view of epistemology while the Christians lean more toward an Externalist view.

On top of this, atheists also tend to define themselves as a Direct Realists, while some Christians do, and some Christians (like myself) do not.

Atheists also seem to think that the use of Logic (of whichever variety), along with various scientific methods, are the primary tools by which we should be able to 'define' the meaning and/or applicability of any religious thought. In which case, religious thought is pretty much doomed to fail if both Logic and Scientific Method(s) are the sole arbiters of religious thought. [Note: I'm not saying they aren't useful and purposeful in exploring the epistemic contours of religious thought, but I am saying that these analytic tools of human thought aren't going to get us the whole way to God if they are relied upon solely, all by themselves. They are helpful, just not conclusive...]

So, we have to ask: is the application of Epistemic Externalism and/or Indirect Realism a form of Irrationalism? And what is "being rational" in regard to religion, or to Christianity in particular?

The answer to that will depend on the person being asked. (Or, everyone could just same themselves some time and effort and go ahead and take that red pill which Morpheus is offering ... ) :cool::cool::cool:

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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KCfromNC

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I think what is really going on is that, despite whatever epistemological construct atheists or Christians decide to choose, atheists tend to lean more toward an Internalist view of epistemology while the Christians lean more toward an Externalist view.

Really? Atheists tend not to base their beliefs on external factors such as, oh I don't know, observing facts about the world around us?

Atheists also seem to think that the use of Logic (of whichever variety), along with various scientific methods, are the primary tools by which we should be able to 'define' the meaning and/or applicability of any religious thought.

More like atheists tend to apply the same standards to religious claims as they do to any other claim about reality.

In which case, religious thought is pretty much doomed to fail if both Logic and Scientific Method(s) are the sole arbiters of religious thought.

Yep. Luckily there's special pleading to save the day.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Yes, really!

Atheists tend not to base their beliefs on external factors such as, oh I don't know, observing facts about the world around us?
... in the jargon of the field of philosophy, Internalism means that coherence and/or justification of belief is essentially a part of a person's cogntive state, that they have most, if not all, of the proper reasons and reasoning that goes with being justified in one's beliefs, and thus having truth. Externalism, on the other hand, is the assertion that a person can basically be justified of beliefs even if they don't have full reasoning as to the justification of those claims--as long as the beliefs really do turn out to be true in reality.

So, as you can see, these terms as used in epistemology are a bit different in their meaning than they their connotations can be within the various sciences. It's kind of like the difference of meaning in the word "theory" between a scientist referring to 'scientific theory' and a pedestrian referring to any run of the mill usage of a 'theory.'

More like atheists tend to apply the same standards to religious claims as they do to any other claim about reality.
Sure. And that may be a mistake; although, I know that atheist mean well.

Yep. Luckily there's special pleading to save the day.
No, it's not special pleading.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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The point I'm trying to make is that while one can have an agnostic position in relation to the gumballs in the machine, and the 'gnostic' counterpart also can be seen as not having any better of a position to know the number of gumballs, in the case of atheists and Christians, the latter are saying that due to certain epistemic factors which come as a part of an appropriate aesthetic response toward the God who 'reveals', they are in a better vantage point to gain knowledge, or at least gain further insights, into the existence of God.

So, in effect, Christians are claiming that not only do they have 'help' to decide, they are also claiming (or should be if they know their Bible) that at least some agnostic non-believers do not have the same divine help, and moreover, this same God may also work to prevent some overly antagonistic non-believers from moving to a more knowledgeable position.

And if this is the case, this epistemic string pulling by God would cripple the Gumball Machine analogy since God is not a passive bystander in the belief process on either side.

You're still missing the point. Dillahunty's gumball analogy isn't about theism. It's not about how likely one of the two binary choices are. It's ONLY about showing the difference between the statements "I don't believe X is true" and "I believe X is false". You're trying to assign a meaning to the analogy that just isn't there. I first heard Dillahunty use the analogy when talking to an atheist caller. Neither one I believe was discussing theism at all.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Can you clarify something: are you saying that no one can ever know whether the number of gumballs is even or odd?

I think the point is that the only way to KNOW if it has an even or odd number of gumballs, is by counting them or having the ability to distribute them in a pattern of even numbers, like pairs for example, and then see if you have any left-overs.

But unless you could do any of such things... what basis could you possible have to claim one or the other?

If not, then can we agree that there is a true answer, but it will take some investigation and searching to figure it out?

Sure. There factually is either an even or odd number.
But without having access to them, how could you possibly know? How do you invesigate something that you can't have access to?

The same then would be true of the God of Jesus. There is a true answer about whether He exists or not, but it will take some investigation and searching to know the true answer.

Indeed. Good luck on having access to this god you speak of.
 
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DogmaHunter

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How do you know that the answer can never be known?

By the premise that one doesn't have any access to the gumballs.
No access = nothing to investigate.

Logic says that there must be a finite amount of gumballs and therefore a true answer as to whether that number is even or odd. The logical next step is to investigate further in the hopes of finding the true answer.

Logic also says that you can't investigate things that you don't have any access too.
Given access, determining if it's an even or odd amount, becomes trivial.

Logic and hope or faith or whatever you want to call it.

Again, assuming you actually have something to investigate. Which you do not.
 
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DogmaHunter

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Yes, really!

... in the jargon of the field of philosophy, Internalism means that coherence and/or justification of belief is essentially a part of a person's cogntive state, that they have most, if not all, of the proper reasons and reasoning that goes with being justified in one's beliefs, and thus having truth. Externalism, on the other hand, is the assertion that a person can basically be justified of beliefs even if they don't have full reasoning as to the justification of those claims--as long as the beliefs really do turn out to be true in reality.

The obvious question, then becomes: how do you assess the truth-value of a claim, if you can't justify the claims to be in accordance with reality?

Sure. And that may be a mistake

How and why?

No, it's not special pleading.

It certainly smells like it.
And you just further confirmed that smell, with your previous sentence saying that "it may be a mistake" to apply the same standard to all claims, be it religious or otherwise.

ie, you are making a special case and proposing to use a special standard for those claims that happen to be religious claims.

If that isn't special pleading, then what is?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You're still missing the point. Dillahunty's gumball analogy isn't about theism. It's not about how likely one of the two binary choices are. It's ONLY about showing the difference between the statements "I don't believe X is true" and "I believe X is false". You're trying to assign a meaning to the analogy that just isn't there. I first heard Dillahunty use the analogy when talking to an atheist caller. Neither one I believe was discussing theism at all.

Yes, I understand that; I saw Dillahunty give one of his presentations of his Gumball Machine.

Personally, I have no qualms over those who don't believe in God offering, and standing by, their definitions that they feel most rationally describe their epistemic position. That's fine. I don't balk at that.

What I don't like is when analogies like the Gumball Machine are trotted out and used to imply that Christians are not being rational, such as seen in what NV has done with it in his OP.

See what I'm getting at? It is ONE THING to simply say, "Hey, Mr. Christian, we want you to respect what we 'mean' when we say we 'don't believe'." And then I'd reply, "ok."

But it is another thing altogether when the Gumball Machine analogy is used to denote more than simply what the nature of 'dis-belief' is.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The obvious question, then becomes: how do you assess the truth-value of a claim, if you can't justify the claims to be in accordance with reality?
The way in which any one of us assesses a knowledge and/or truth "claim" will depend on one's meta-epistemology.

In other words, if you are a Strong Foundationalist and Evidentialist, you'll probably view the justification of a truth-value in a particular way (depending, of course, on what one holds to be axiomatic in all cases).

But if one is a Moderate Foundationalist...all of this can be something a little different.

Or if one is a Weak Foundationalist...it may yet again be something different.

Or if one instead subscribes to Coherentism, there may be another conclusion reached as to how justification works, and thus how other belief constructs and other conclusions end up being held as 'true.'

Or if one is a Reliabilist, yet again, another way of justification may come forth.

Or, if one is a Pragmatist, another position may be reached.

Or, if one is an Existentialist or a Nihilist, different yet again ...

Or if one adds in various Psychological predeterminers that affect how we might even conceive of how ANY epistemological position can work, such as whether one is a Direct Realist, a Representational Realist, a Constructivist, or other Non-realist, then this choice in what is seen as proper epistemology may bring in yet one more factor (or more...) to be added to the outcome of what also ends up being viewed as Justified-True-Belief.

And of course, none of the above specifically reflects that a person might also identify as a Rationalist, or an Empiricist, or an Idealist, or one given only to Materialism and the doing of **ahem** ...something called pure science.​


How and why?
... because religious claims will be not only subject to the peculiar epistemic position one actually holds, but if the actual nature of religious knowledge is different than that of typical, then scientific knowledge gained by experiment or whatnot, then a scientific application may not be suitable for that kind of knowledge. Science can get you to the Moon and back, but it may not quite get you to the 'face' of God (...unless one is Prometheus, of course, in which case you not only 'meet' God, but you steal His knowledge away to use for another day! ;)).

It certainly smells like it.
And you just further confirmed that smell, with your previous sentence saying that "it may be a mistake" to apply the same standard to all claims, be it religious or otherwise.

ie, you are making a special case and proposing to use a special standard for those claims that happen to be religious claims.
No, none of the positions above are 'special cases' that I've created. They are what they are: a relative variety of epistemic positions on the nature of truth.

If that isn't special pleading, then what is?
... epistemology isn't 'special pleading'; it is what it is, and if you want to ignore the fact of perceptual relativity that is involved in individual perceptions of, and interactions with, whatever Reality we are all in, then that's your choice--you can be aware of it all and take it into consideration, or you can ignore what you don't happen to like, just like everybody else. :cool:
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Yes, I understand that; I saw Dillahunty give one of his presentations of his Gumball Machine.

Personally, I have no qualms over those who don't believe in God offering, and standing by, their definitions that they feel most rationally describe their epistemic position. That's fine. I don't balk at that.

What I don't like is when analogies like the Gumball Machine are trotted out and used to imply that Christians are not being rational, such as seen in what NV has done with it in his OP.

See what I'm getting at? It is ONE THING to simply say, "Hey, Mr. Christian, we want you to respect what we 'mean' when we say we 'don't believe'." And then I'd reply, "ok."

But it is another thing altogether when the Gumball Machine analogy is used to denote more than simply what the nature of 'dis-belief' is.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Sure, I was initially responding to someone who thought that Dillahunty's analogy was silly. I just wanted to show that it was a useful analogy for what it was designed to show.

I agree that the analogy shouldn't be used to say that anyone is irrational. Personally, I try and stay away from the term rational, as bringing it up is rarely helpful. I think it's enough to examine how and why someone's beliefs may not correspond to reality.
 
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How do you know that the answer can never be known?

Because that's a parameter of the thought experiment.

I find it interesting that nearly every Christian here doesn't know what a thought experiment is, while every atheist has no problem understanding what is being said.

Can't we at least conclude that there is a finite amount of gumballs and therefore a true answer as to whether the number is even or odd, even if we currently don't know the true answer.

Yes... I thought this was obvious.

Logic says that there must be a finite amount of gumballs and therefore a true answer as to whether that number is even or odd.

False. Logically, we could consider an infinite gumball machine. Nothing is logically wrong with that.

The logical next step is to investigate further in the hopes of finding the true answer.

This is a thought experiment designed to demonstrate what the reasonable response is to limited information.

Logic and hope or faith or whatever you want to call it.

What does hope and faith have to do with anything that's been said?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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And how do you propose we know which authority to choose to accept, aside from drawing a name out of a hat?



Well then why did you propose it? Try sticking to the original thought experiment instead of attempting to alter it unreasonably.




And this is exactly why the very first thing I brought up was the gumball analogy. Please go back and re-read it, and this time just think about it instead of mangling it.
As I said, I find your gumball analogy silly. It is a poor one. Some may find it useful, I just see it as simplistic and incoherent as I explained earlier. I did not mangle it, I explained why it doesn't function as it is supposed to. This is because we are on the grounds of the collective authority we choose to accept or reject, not just musing ourselves. To answer your first paragraph, this is to be done by Reason and what correlates best with our own experience.
The null hypothesis states that the default position is that there is no causal correlation between two things. My racing stripe analogy absolutely does fit, and you simply don't know what you're talking about.
Rereading the OP, I see you never made a claim that some said racing stripes make cars quicker against which the null hypothesis was juxtaposed. I was under the impression you had. If it is merely the hypothesis itself, not one supported by subjective evidence, then yes, Mea Culpa.
But that is the thing. There are people, with experiences, that assert Religion. It is not no-data, but data that needs to be overthrown, to assert atheism. It requires insistence upon merely repeatable empirical data, as if this is the only data we have, instead of merely another form of qualia, for such an assertion.

If we scan the stars for a Dyson Sphere, and we find nothing, then, according to your methodology here, we would have no data on Dyson Spheres. You literally could not possibly be more wrong.
This statement is incongruous. So you're saying the Atheist position is not lack of empirical evidence, but positive empirical evidence against the existence of God? What, pray tell? So you say you do have data on God, then? Is this not against your whole attempt to co-opt agnosticism?

Again, more of the same ignorance.

An insurance company looks at your driving history, and you have 0 accidents and 0 tickets. Hmm, no data, right?

No evidence for God *is* data.

I'm hoping something happens inside you and you admit that you're wrong, but I'd probably have better luck shaving a flea's butt with a chainsaw.
But there is not 'no evidence'. There is no repeatable evidence that fulfills methodological naturalism, true, but the concept does not require this.
There is however a lot of human experience and other forms of qualia in support. You can even argue methodological naturalism supports Theism, but that requires teleological assumptions which I assume you are loath to make.

Wow, a positive claim is a null hypothesis. Absolutely unbelievable that you just said this.

This is how the null hypothesis works:

Suppose we think there might be some correlation between fossil fuels and global warming. The null hypothesis is that there is no correlation. If we find that there is no correlation, then the null hypothesis is vindicated; if we do find a correlation, then the null hypothesis is falsified.

So the null hypothesis regarding God is that he doesn't exist. If you think you've made a case for his existence, the null hypothesis is falsified. You seem to think that either the null hypothesis is always correct - and that we change the null hypothesis with accumulation of evidence - or that a positive claim could be a null hypothesis.

And again, you literally could not be more wrong.
Noted. How they described it in your linked article wasn't as clear. But it was wikipedia though, so of course a poor source.

My own background in statistics is in Evidence Based Medicine. This concept is never used there, or at least not in its application in clinical practice. We assert confidence intervals, areas in which we think the answer may or may not fall. We don't assert one hypothesis as necessarily more valid in this manner, we talk of Best Evidence or evidence class. It is a system of deductive reasoning from data, while this seems more inductive reasoning then tested by data, so is a quite different animal. In practice, there can be no null hypotheses in EBM then; so in my, admittedly biased, opinion, this is a thoroughly inferior means of statistical reality testing to EBM. Anyway, by that reasoning you describe, the null hypothesis is agnosticism then. This is bordering on the sophistry of equating agnosticism with Atheism, which you seem to ascribe to - which renders the latter a meaningless term, seeing that you need to ask in detail every person what they mean by it. While people can call themselves whatever they wish, if their terms are robbed of utility, it is robbed of meaning as well. I shall say no more on this.

And I'd suggest you read the OP before responding, research the subjects being discussed, and have the requisite humility to admit when you're wrong.
You asked for my arguments and I gave them. I fail to see how you think such a flippant broadside is called for in response to what I wrote. This was thoroughly within your OP anyway, being reasonable arguments for Christianity.

We've had many discussions, and none of them will be fruitful until you show some Christian humility.
Please enlighten me where I have been so proud? When I am wrong, I admit it. When I have not been shown in error, it is not humility, but sycophancy to the OP, to do so. I explained concepts of assertoricity and apodicticity in excruciating detail in your previous thread, with you mostly choosing to ignore, in fact often refuse to even read, what I wrote. Our discussions will be fruitful if you extend me the courtesy I extend you.

There's what logic actually is. Then there's what logic is used for. We use it to make inferences. But that's not what it is.

We use cars to drive, but does that mean a car is the act of driving?

Artificial intelligence may one day be able to make inferences. Or maybe it already can. But most computers on earth cannot make inferences, and yet all they do is perform logic. So I await your admission that you are wrong. Here's me waiting for that day:

rocking-chair-skeleton.jpg
You are not listening. We don't use logic to make inferences. We make inferences and test their validity with Logic.
Logical sequences can have all their propositions replaced with placeholding letters and still remain coherent. The actual propositions are irrelevant to the logic of the sequence, which tests the relations between them. You appear to equate logic with reasoning now. Curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said...

You really should read up a bit on what Logic actually is, before launching into snide insistence on your own correctness. You seem intent on parading your ignorance though, and I tried my best - once again, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
 
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All who love life will honour Him, all who oppose Him are opposed to righteousness and therefore must use deceit to evade the truth that would expose their truly despicable form.

Lol, and this post was up voted as friendly.

I hope this is sufficient to explain my views, or I could explain more in detail if you would ask for clarification.

You certainly explained your views.

Thanks for having asked!

So... is this just very thick sarcasm, or do you really think you're being polite?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Because that's a parameter of the thought experiment.

I find it interesting that nearly every Christian here doesn't know what a thought experiment is, while every atheist has no problem understanding what is being said.



Yes... I thought this was obvious.



False. Logically, we could consider an infinite gumball machine. Nothing is logically wrong with that.



This is a thought experiment designed to demonstrate what the reasonable response is to limited information.



What does hope and faith have to do with anything that's been said?

... I don't know: how many licks DOES it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Roll Pop?

Anyone know? Anyone? Anyone? :rolleyes:
 
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Chriliman

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Because that's a parameter of the thought experiment.

Then it's not a good analogy for how to view Christian theism because one of the base claims of Christianity is that God can be known personally through Christ. We don't claim God is unknowable, which is what your thought experiment is claiming "No one can know if the number of gumballs is even or odd".

I find it interesting that nearly every Christian here doesn't know what a thought experiment is, while every atheist has no problem understanding what is being said.

I know what a thought experiment is, which is how I know yours needs to be adjusted. Christian theism does not claim God is unknowable.
 
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Lol, and this post was up voted as friendly.
You don't know Him though, you think of Him as an evil being, the opposite of the word "holy". Given this, if you think you meet the criteria for not honouring Him and that therefore subjects you to the condemnation in my words, I need to inform you that you could yet be found of the character that would honour Him if you were to recognise His true nature.

Is your objection to Adonai based upon a perceived immorality, injustice, hypocrisy etc in your assessment of His character?
So... is this just very thick sarcasm, or do you really think you're being polite?
I am actually being misunderstood. You are reading a meaning in my words that I have not placed in them.
 
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Then it's not a good analogy for how to view Christian theism because one of the base claims of Christianity is that God can be known personally through Christ. We don't claim God is unknowable, which is what your thought experiment is claiming "No one can know if the number of gumballs is even or odd".

Great... but your claims are basically worthless.

You claim that you can know Christ. And you claim that a book which details supposed prophecies and miracles is true. Yet, the reality is that not a single Christian is capable of producing prophecies or miracles. So what exactly do you have to offer aside from a snake-oil claim?

I know what a thought experiment is, which is how I know yours needs to be adjusted. Christian theism does not claim God is unknowable.

I can grant everything you have said in this post and it doesn't make the slightest difference. You claim to understand what's being said in the thought experiment, but obviously you don't.

As has been pointed out, not only in the OP but by other atheists as well, is that the gumball analogy points out the difference between lack of belief in a god and belief that there is no god. Go re-read the OP: the very next thing I say, after paraphrasing the gumball machine analogy, is, "This is why most atheists are the "lack of belief" type of atheist." So your objection that Christians are able to solve the gumball odd/even problem doesn't mean anything, it is not relevant to the OP, and you need to re-read the OP without any preconceived notions on your end.
 
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