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Atheism and the Beginning

Eudaimonist

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Yes. The eternal doesnt have a cause. Cause is a relation in time.
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But there's no such basis for dismissing an explanation, which need not be limited by considerations of time/sequence.
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What is an "explanation" that isn't limited by considerations of time/sequence? What work is that performing?

As I see it, explanations are of the form "entity (or state of affairs) A leads through change to the existence (or form) of entity (or state of affairs) B". There is no such thing as an explanation for entity B that isn't limited by considerations of time/sequence, since there can't be any interaction or change without such a concept.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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durangodawood

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What is an "explanation" that isn't limited by considerations of time/sequence? What work is that performing?

As I see it, explanations are of the form "entity (or state of affairs) A leads through change to the existence (or form) of entity (or state of affairs) B". There is no such thing as an explanation for entity B that isn't limited by considerations of time/sequence, since there can't be any interaction or change without such a concept.


eudaimonia,

Mark
I know what you mean, in that your response is completely intelligible. But I cant help thinking there's something incomplete about requiring an explanation - for things at this level - to make sense in the ordinary way.
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And, are you saying there has to be something, rather than nothing?
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Chesterton

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The reason is that we are here and have articulated laws, constants, etc. as best we can ... unless you get into the whole "How do we know we exist" thing, which is pointless IMO.

A great question, and difficult, but not pointless, IMO.
 
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Chesterton

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Similar to Eudaimonists reply. With the multiverse the laws of physics are no longer just right for life.

You don't need a multiverse for that. The laws of physics could have been different even 10,000 years ago. Some creationists argue that. They could be different in other parts of this universe. You haven't visited the Andromeda Galaxy, have you? Besides, we think of life needing stuff like water and carbon because that's all we know, but there's no real reason to think that. Science tells me the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, and I'd probably bet the farm that they're right, but there's no actual guanatee.

You are asking why anything exists now, rather than why existence is fine-tuned, aren't you?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction. You mean "life" versus "things"?

Assuming string theory for now; there is physics and chemistry because those are one of the outcomes of string theory.

You might ask why string theory is true rather than something else, and I'll ask why God is real and has the nature he has.

I don't understand string theory, but obvious questions pop up: "what are the strings made of, why are they real, and what is their nature"?

That isn't a double negative. If I say, "I have no reason to think my calculator is not in my top draw", that doesn't mean I have a reason to think it is there.

It might be in my top draw, but I have no positive reason to think it is there rather than somewhere else.

Well maybe it's not a double negative, I'm confused now. I should stay out of the Philosophy forum. :D But, to say there's no reason to think my calculator is not somewhere specific is the same as saying "I think nothing." The classic atheist position. To some degree, I respect the position, it's honest, but I think something different.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What do you consider the best, or some of the best, possible explanations for the universe, considering that the universe appears to be right for life when it seems it need not have been?

There is the possibility that there are many universes, each with different laws of physics, and we are living in one which allows for life. This appear to be the main explanation.

Are there any other alternatives, or should we be thinking it's rather probable that we exist in a multiverse?

Considering how often cosmological and design arguments are brought up, do Christians have any objections?

I suppose there are at least two questions that could be asked: 1) 'Why is there something rather than nothing?'; 2) 'Why are the laws of the multiverse the way they are?'

(1) could be applied to God as much as the multiverse, (eg: Why is there something (God) rather than nothing?).

(2) might be considered similar to asking why the nature of God is the way it is. Why is God omniscient, why is God good, why is God a being?

Maybe asking (2) will becoming meaningless once we have a theory of everything. Perhaps it will make it obvious why reality couldn't have been any different.

I personally think Lee Smolin's approach is more realistic. And no, since I'm not a physicist, I'm not going to summarize and defend Smolin's approach to all of this.
 
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Eudaimonist

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You don't need a multiverse for that. The laws of physics could have been different even 10,000 years ago.

There's no evidence for that.

They could be different in other parts of this universe. You haven't visited the Andromeda Galaxy, have you?

No, but the Andromeda Galaxy can be observed from here.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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And, are you saying there has to be something, rather than nothing?

Something like that. I am saying that since there clearly is something now, there has to be something. Nothingness isn't an option, except in the minds of philosophical people. There is no way to explain how it is that there is something, since no existing cause can account for all of existence. Existence just is.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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quatona

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1) 'Why is there something rather than nothing?'
I´m having problems understanding the feeling that this is a question that needs to be answered. Why would one expect there to be nothing (and why would we assume "there is nothing" to be the default state - while it actually isn´t even a state) , in the first place.
Secondly, if for a moment I am accepting the premise that "there is nothing" is the default state from which "there is something" needs to be explained as an alteration, no answer can be had: The question asks for (and thereby presupposes the existence of) something that is responsible for the alteration.
 
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Paradoxum

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In what sense 'right for life'? As far as we know, life can exist only in an infinitesimal fraction of just our solar system, much less the universe.

Because if the laws were slightly different then no life at all would be possible.

It may be that the alternative to something existing is impossible.

Could be that there is no other possible way for things to be. I think this is what was motivating Einstein's statement "What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the World."

More likely (if some form of multiversism is true) it is the weak anthropic principle. We can only live in a universe that has laws that allow us to exist. So in all the many multiverses where the laws aren't like that, there isn't anyone to ask the question. And if you can ask the question, then necessarily you must live an a universe that allows for life.

I think I pretty much agree.

You don't need a multiverse for that. The laws of physics could have been different even 10,000 years ago. Some creationists argue that.

Alot of creationists don't understand science. We can see into the past by looking at light from stars. I'd think scientists would have seen if there had been major changes.

They could be different in other parts of this universe. You haven't visited the Andromeda Galaxy, have you?

No but we can look at it. I know scientists have suggested that far beyond what we can see there might be different physical constants.

Sure, maybe there might not be a multi-verse. I'm really trying to argue that the multi-verse IS real.

Besides, we think of life needing stuff like water and carbon because that's all we know, but there's no real reason to think that. Science tells me the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, and I'd probably bet the farm that they're right, but there's no actual guanatee.

Well if you understand water and carbon, you will see why it might be harder for life to evolve based on anything else. Maybe it is possible, but it seems less likely. It isn't simply because we are based on water and carbon.

I'm not sure I understand the distinction. You mean "life" versus "things"?

No, I mean, you seemed to be asking why anything exists. The fine-tuning argument is different from that. The fine-tuning argument is about the laws of existence, not why the universe exists exists. :)

I don't understand string theory, but obvious questions pop up: "what are the strings made of, why are they real, and what is their nature"?

Sure, I said such theories could be questioned in the first post.

Well maybe it's not a double negative, I'm confused now. I should stay out of the Philosophy forum. :D But, to say there's no reason to think my calculator is not somewhere specific is the same as saying "I think nothing." The classic atheist position. To some degree, I respect the position, it's honest, but I think something different.

Well I don't think it is the same as saying 'I think nothing'. To be honest I'm finding it hard to know what the first phrasing means anyway. :p

Atheists do tend to say we don't know where the universe came from though. There isn't the evidence to make a strong claim.

I personally think Lee Smolin's approach is more realistic. And no, since I'm not a physicist, I'm not going to summarize and defend Smolin's approach to all of this.

After googling it, something about universes being born from black holes? Fair enough, I'm not going to ask you to defend it.

I've never found much sense in that line of reasoning. I'll leave it for the physicists to wrestle with that one, but my impression is that virtual particles come into existence within the context of spacetime, not out of a pure, philosophical nothingness, so I'm not convinced that is any kind of explanation.

I wasn't thinking of virtual particles.

I´m having problems understanding the feeling that this is a question that needs to be answered. Why would one expect there to be nothing (and why would we assume "there is nothing" to be the default state - while it actually isn´t even a state) , in the first place.

'Nothing' seems to be simpler, and doesn't need it's properties explained. Even if nothing seems just a probable as something, I'd still think it makes sense to ask, even if the answer is that the question doesn't make sense considering our understanding of the basic structure of existence.

Secondly, if for a moment I am accepting the premise that "there is nothing" is the default state from which "there is something" needs to be explained as an alteration, no answer can be had: The question asks for (and thereby presupposes the existence of) something that is responsible for the alteration.

I don't imagine there was nothing and then something existed. So I'm not looking for something to cause a change. I suppose I want an explanation for why existence is just as simple and basic as nothing.
 
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durangodawood

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Something like that. I am saying that since there clearly is something now, there has to be something. Nothingness isn't an option, except in the minds of philosophical people. There is no way to explain how it is that there is something, since no existing cause can account for all of existence. Existence just is.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Within time, yes. But looked at from an eternal pov, that problem goes away. And the question: could there be nothing rather than something can re-emerge.

I'm not sure if the difficulty in imagining the alternative to something ought be a cue that its not in fact an option. I doubt that our minds are properly equipped to handle all actual possibilities.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Within time, yes. But looked at from an eternal pov, that problem goes away.

I don't see how. That just seems to me to make the problem worse. Please explain.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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durangodawood

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I don't see how. That just seems to me to make the problem worse. Please explain.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Seems totally arbitrary to require considerations of things beyond existence to "make sense".

"Sense" is for things within our universe.

Therefore I cant rule out anything regarding the state of existence, or even of the universe itself. As unlikely as it seems, it could all just vanish tomorrow for all I know.... and leave nothing.
 
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Davian

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In what sense 'right for life'? As far as we know, life can exist only in an infinitesimal fraction of just our solar system, much less the universe.



It may be that the alternative to something existing is impossible.



Could be that there is no other possible way for things to be. I think this is what was motivating Einstein's statement "What really interests me is whether God had any choice in the creation of the World."

More likely (if some form of multiversism is true) it is the weak anthropic principle. We can only live in a universe that has laws that allow us to exist. So in all the many multiverses where the laws aren't like that, there isn't anyone to ask the question. And if you can ask the question, then necessarily you must live an a universe that allows for life.
That works for me.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Paradoxum

After googling it, something about universes being born from black holes? Fair enough, I'm not going to ask you to defend it.

Actually, in sum, Lee Smolin disfavors the concept of multiverses.

Am I saying Lee Smolin is the final authority on science. No, but his view points and criticisms as to how physics is done today might be considered.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Seems totally arbitrary to require considerations of things beyond existence to "make sense".

"Sense" is for things within our universe.

Therefore I cant rule out anything regarding the state of existence, or even of the universe itself. As unlikely as it seems, it could all just vanish tomorrow for all I know.... and leave nothing.

I'm not seeking to consider anything "beyond existence". When did I do that? I'm doing the precise opposite. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to ask for a cause of existence because that cause would itself have to exist.

I agree with you that sense is for things within our universe in that cause and effect takes place within the context of physical reality. We can make sense out of Entity A since we are able to think in terms of causes and conditions for the arising of Entity A within the broader context of physical reality. Since physical reality is the context for cause and effect, it itself is uncaused, and shouldn't be thought of in the same way. (See fallacy of composition.) It is eternal. It is not in need of an explanation. It need not "make sense" in the way that caused entities do. (Which isn't to say that one can't reason about the subject, but that one's thinking requires a different paradigm.)

The problem of asking for a cause of existence does indeed go away, since the question "why is there something rather than nothing?" can't be answered without entangling oneself in a logical contradiction.

BTW, I'm not against the idea that there can be an end to time. That wouldn't mean that physical reality is not eternal. It would simply mean that internally it is bounded.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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durangodawood

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I'm not seeking to consider anything "beyond existence". When did I do that? I'm doing the precise opposite. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to ask for a cause of existence because that cause would itself have to exist.
Every time you deny the possibility of "nothingness".

I agree with you that sense is for things within our universe in that cause and effect takes place within the context of physical reality. We can make sense out of Entity A since we are able to think in terms of causes and conditions for the arising of Entity A within the broader context of physical reality. Since physical reality is the context for cause and effect, it itself is uncaused, and shouldn't be thought of in the same way. (See fallacy of composition.) It is eternal. It is not in need of an explanation. It need not "make sense" in the way that caused entities do. (Which isn't to say that one can't reason about the subject, but that one's thinking requires a different paradigm.)

The problem of asking for a cause of existence does indeed go away, since the question "why is there something rather than nothing?" can't be answered without entangling oneself in a logical contradiction.

BTW, I'm not against the idea that there can be an end to time. That wouldn't mean that physical reality is not eternal. It would simply mean that internally it is bounded.
I'm not bothered at all by real (not apparent) paradox where things "meta" to our universe are concerned. I'm in no position to reject paradox for those conditions. For all I know, thtat topic is not merely the unknown.... but the unknowable (to our minds). So to forclose any possibility is overreaching.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Every time you deny the possibility of "nothingness".

Since existence does exist, and since it is uncaused, there is no way to speak of the possibility that existence might never have existed. It's a logical impossibility, arguments from ignorance notwithstanding.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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durangodawood

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Since existence does exist, and since it is uncaused, there is no way to speak of the possibility that existence might never have existed. It's a logical impossibility, arguments from ignorance notwithstanding.


eudaimonia,

Mark
I know. I appreciate how youve walked me through the logical problem, and I agree.

Where we differ is whether logic must guide us in consideration of things at that level.
 
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quatona

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I know. I appreciate how youve walked me through the logical problem, and I agree.

Where we differ is whether logic must guide us in consideration of things at that level.
Any ideas what must guide us instead "in consideration of things at that level"?
 
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