Atheism and nihilism

[Lord Vega]

Jesus stated: "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Matthew 17:20.

If believers really could make mountains move simply by praying, then I would take that as evidence that the Bible is correct and God does exist.

The verse you quoted is a metaphor used to illustrate the magnitude and power of prayer. No biblical scholar, or for that matter anyone who reads the Bible, believes Jesus meant that prayers can cause literal earthquakes.

As for evidence that prayer works and proves God's existence, I think the testimonies of countless Christians whose lives have been changed by the power of prayer make a compelling case for the existence of God. If you're still skeptical, then I encourage you to try praying and see for yourself that it works. God answers everyone who calls to him, including nonbelievers.

This thread is going off topic.

 

[Kylie]

The verse you quoted is a metaphor used to illustrate the magnitude and power of prayer. No biblical scholar, or for that matter anyone who reads the Bible, believes Jesus meant that prayers can cause literal earthquakes.

As for evidence that prayer works and proves God's existence, I think the testimonies of countless Christians whose lives have been changed by the power of prayer make a compelling case for the existence of God. If you're still skeptical, then I encourage you to try praying and see for yourself that it works. God answers everyone who calls to him, including nonbelievers.

This thread is going off topic.

And here we go. All of a sudden excuses are being made to explain why Jesus didn't really mean the things he said. because if you don't, then we have a testable claim which fails.

And yet all you can do is provide vague and untestable things to support your position. People prayed and God helped them, yet you give no specifics. What did they pray for? Why does God grant some prayers and not others? Why are the things people get when they pray the sort of things they could have gotten anyway?

 

[Lord Vega]

And here we go. All of a sudden excuses are being made to explain why Jesus didn't really mean the things he said. because if you don't, then we have a testable claim which fails.

And yet all you can do is provide vague and untestable things to support your position. People prayed and God helped them, yet you give no specifics. What did they pray for? Why does God grant some prayers and not others? Why are the things people get when they pray the sort of things they could have gotten anyway?

If I were to say it's not my cup of tea, I wouldn't actually mean a cup of tea doesn't belong to me. I would mean I don't like this. Or if I said this is a piece of cake, I wouldn't actually mean that whatever activity I was doing was a literal piece of cake. I would mean it's easy. These are idioms. Metaphors function similarly. If Jesus says faith is so powerful that it can move mountains, it's no different than saying a bodybuilder is so strong he can lift an elephant. Metaphors, as well as idioms, have never functioned to mean what they say, but to be figures of speech that apply to objects or actions in a way that is not literally applicable. That's how language has always worked.

The reason why I didn't give any examples of people's lives being changed or impacted by prayer is because I presumed you could look it up on the internet. I didn't feel the need to post links to such testimonies because it isn't that hard to use Google.

 

[FireDragon76]

As Solomon said, if there is no God, life has no meaning. It means nothing if a person is a swindler or murderer or devotes their lives to the poor and needy. Try telling that to an atheist and they just blather about the legacy they leave behind, that their memory lives on in their descendants or something along those lines.

That's actually a more beautiful sentiment than suggesting the only way that a person's life can have meaning, is if billions of other people burn in hell for just happening to not be adherents of the one true religion.

 

[Kylie]

If I were to say it's not my cup of tea, I wouldn't actually mean a cup of tea doesn't belong to me. I would mean I don't like this. Or if I said this is a piece of cake, I wouldn't actually mean that whatever activity I was doing was a literal piece of cake. I would mean it's easy. These are idioms. Metaphors function similarly. If Jesus says faith is so powerful that it can move mountains, it's no different than saying a bodybuilder is so strong he can lift an elephant. Metaphors, as well as idioms, have never functioned to mean what they say, but to be figures of speech that apply to objects or actions in a way that is not literally applicable. That's how language has always worked.

The reason why I didn't give any examples of people's lives being changed or impacted by prayer is because I presumed you could look it up on the internet. I didn't feel the need to post links to such testimonies because it isn't that hard to use Google.

Of course, when people talk about something not being their cup of tea, it's clear from context. After all, it's rare that this phrase is used during an actual discussion about tea. The fact that it doesn't follow on from what was being discussed is one indication that it is a metaphor. Another is the fact that the same phrase is used in multiple situations and in different contexts, and there is a single meaning that makes sense in those situations. Are there any other examples of praying to move mountains used anywhere else? The only part of the passage that is obviously metaphorical is the "faith as small as a mustard seed" part, since the amount of faith can not be measured in the same way that a physical object can. There is nothing to indicate that the moving mountains part is metaphorical, and I suspect the only reason it is explained away as metaphor today is because believers known that if it isn't metaphorical, it becomes a testable claim that fails the test.

And the reason I don't accept prayer as evidence is because it is anecdotal evidence.

 

[FireDragon76]

Of course, when people talk about something not being their cup of tea, it's clear from context. After all, it's rare that this phrase is used during an actual discussion about tea. The fact that it doesn't follow on from what was being discussed is one indication that it is a metaphor. Another is the fact that the same phrase is used in multiple situations and in different contexts, and there is a single meaning that makes sense in those situations. Are there any other examples of praying to move mountains used anywhere else?

Even I don't consider myself a Christian, but I'll grant that Jesus' language is often hyperbolic, and this passage can be understood in that context. We are talking about a Jew from the middle east 2,000 years ago, not a modern analytic philosopher.

 

[Kylie]

Even I don't consider myself a Christian, but I'll grant that Jesus' language is often hyperbolic, and this passage can be understood in that context. We are talking about a Jew from the middle east 2,000 years ago, not a modern analytic philosopher.

But this isn't the only example of this. There are other passages that clearly describe the sort of things that believers can do. They can drink poisons, they can handle venomous snakes and not die. And in none of these cases do the phrases come across as metaphors or idioms or anything of the sort.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Jesus stated: "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." Matthew 17:20.

If believers really could make mountains move simply by praying, then I would take that as evidence that the Bible is correct and God does exist.

Yeah most would I suppose. If I was coming from an atheist point of view, I wouldn't accept that as evidence. If someone prayed for a mountain to move, and then it did - I’d say it was a coincidence or something else we don't yet understand. I'd argue correlation is not causation I suppose.
That person would never be able to prove that their prayer is causing the mountain to move. I'd find the event shocking, but that doesn't mean I should just go and believe in prayer or God.

My own thoughts...
The verse you picked is an interesting one. Maybe Jesus meant what He said? Maybe He meant that if you take God seriously, if you really care about God, Loving your neighbour and doing God's work here in the world - humanity will reach a spiritual enlightenment and "move mountains" with faith and prayer. (Move mountains - I assume is a figure of speech - He probably meant manipulate matter though - like healing).
Currently - we can't share our water with each other without a fight so I doubt we are there yet.

 

[Kylie]

Yeah most would I suppose. If I was coming from an atheist point of view, I wouldn't accept that as evidence. If someone prayed for a mountain to move, and then it did - I’d say it was a coincidence or something else we don't yet understand. I'd argue correlation is not causation I suppose.
That person would never be able to prove that their prayer is causing the mountain to move. I'd find the event shocking, but that doesn't mean I should just go and believe in prayer or God.

My own thoughts...
The verse you picked is an interesting one. Maybe Jesus meant what He said? Maybe He meant that if you take God seriously, if you really care about God, Loving your neighbour and doing God's work here in the world - humanity will reach a spiritual enlightenment and "move mountains" with faith and prayer. (Move mountains - I assume is a figure of speech - He probably meant manipulate matter though - like healing).
Currently - we can't share our water with each other without a fight so I doubt we are there yet.

Are you really telling me that if you were an atheist and someone said, "I pray for that mountain to move from where it is to this other location," and then the mountain actually freaking moved to where you said that you would just dismiss it as a coincidence?

REALLY?

Because I'd sure as heck sit up and take notice and think that maybe this person was onto something!

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

And here we go. All of a sudden excuses are being made to explain why Jesus didn't really mean the things he said. because if you don't, then we have a testable claim which fails.

And yet all you can do is provide vague and untestable things to support your position.

A lot of times, it's true to say Christian's provide only a story and speak of their experience - to which others can take or leave.

People prayed and God helped them, yet you give no specifics. What did they pray for? Why does God grant some prayers and not others? Why are the things people get when they pray the sort of things they could have gotten anyway?

Christians have to account for these questions too. Christians, in their faith find themselves having to...
Account for why God is seemingly so quiet (sometimes you feel God hears you and you're connected - others, you feel like He has disappeared).
Sometimes it seems God doesn't help you - Why?
Why does God grant some prayers and not others? (Yep)
Why are the things people get when they pray the sort of things they could have gotten anyway? (Here I assume you mean people attribute every petty little success to God answering a prayer?? Some believe God does for them what they themselves cannot do, so they wouldn't have had it without God - Addiction recovery for example)

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Are you really telling me that if you were an atheist and someone said, "I pray for that mountain to move from where it is to this other location," and then the mountain actually freaking moved to where you said that you would just dismiss it as a coincidence?

REALLY?

Because I'd sure as heck sit up and take notice and think that maybe this person was onto something!

I'd think I was part of some trick.

I'd have to remember that "correlation is not causation" and not get tempted to jump on the bandwagon. I'd need more.

 

[Kylie]

I'd think I was part of some trick.

I'd have to remember that "correlation is not causation" and not get tempted. I'd need more

What kind of trick could move a whole mountain from one place to another?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

What kind of trick could move a whole mountain from one place to another?

Why shouldn't I believe we have technology to do that? Even saying "alien tech did it" is more believable than saying my prayer did it.

How would you prove it was the prayer?

 

[FireDragon76]

But this isn't the only example of this. There are other passages that clearly describe the sort of things that believers can do. They can drink poisons, they can handle venomous snakes and not die. And in none of these cases do the phrases come across as metaphors or idioms or anything of the sort.

Most mainstream biblical scholars don't believe that passage was said by the historical Jesus, as it is not found in the earliest versions of Mark.

I tend to go with the Jesus Seminar or Marcus Borg, which in turn is based on the work of biblical scholars such as Albert Schweitzer, in understanding the historical context of the New Testament.

 

[Kylie]

Why shouldn't I believe we have technology to do that? Even saying "alien tech did it" is more believable than saying my prayer did it.

Are you suggesting that it's even remotely plausible that aliens came at the exact moment you spoke the prayer, heard you and had the technology to do what you prayed for?

How would you prove it was the prayer?

Test it. See if it works in a reliable manner. I mean, even if SOMEHOW it was a coincidence that the mountain made the exact movement you prayed for at the exact time you prayed for it, what are the chances that it would happen more than once?

Do you really think that atheists are just out to deny God no matter what? Because that's not true. Most atheists just lack a belief in God. That's a different thing to believe that God is not real. It's like you may not belief there is a cat sitting just outside your front door, but you are claiming that there's no way a cat could possibly be there. You just have no reason to think there is a cat there, but if you are shown evidence of a cat, you will change your mind. Atheists have a similar position about God. We may lack a belief in God, but most of us are willing to change our minds given sufficient evidence.

 

[FireDragon76]

Are you suggesting that it's even remotely plausible that aliens came at the exact moment you spoke the prayer, heard you and had the technology to do what you prayed for?



Test it. See if it works in a reliable manner. I mean, even if SOMEHOW it was a coincidence that the mountain made the exact movement you prayed for at the exact time you prayed for it, what are the chances that it would happen more than once?

Do you really think that atheists are just out to deny God no matter what? Because that's not true. Most atheists just lack a belief in God. That's a different thing to believe that God is not real. It's like you may not belief there is a cat sitting just outside your front door, but you are claiming that there's no way a cat could possibly be there. You just have no reason to think there is a cat there, but if you are shown evidence of a cat, you will change your mind. Atheists have a similar position about God. We may lack a belief in God, but most of us are willing to change our minds given sufficient evidence.

Why should prayer be "testable"? If I ask you for a sandwich and you don't give me one, does that prove anything like you are assuming is the case with prayer?

Obviously, from a theistic standpoint, petitionary prayers don't have to be granted, as they involve relating to another person who has his own will.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

.......Do you really think that atheists are just out to deny God no matter what? Because that's not true.

No - I don't think that.

Most atheists just lack a belief in God. That's a different thing to believe that God is not real. It's like you may not belief there is a cat sitting just outside your front door, but you are claiming that there's no way a cat could possibly be there. You just have no reason to think there is a cat there, but if you are shown evidence of a cat, you will change your mind. Atheists have a similar position about God. We may lack a belief in God, but most of us are willing to change our minds given sufficient evidence.

I just meant that for me, a prayer and a moved mountain isn't enough. I'd need more. I'd ask if there are any other possible explanations for what I'm seeing.

I'd look at myself.
I'd wonder if I were delusional? What have I ingested? Am I sick? Am I on drugs?

I'd look at the event.
Is it a trick? Is it possible to make people hallucinate? What affects my perceptions? Have I been stumped before by "magic tricks" I didn't understand? (yes). Is it possible this is an illusion?

If it's not me and the event is true, I'd look at science.
Could some tech do this? Should I assume it's impossible to do this? What do I really know about what the govt can do? Is tech that can transport and beam a mountain so hard to believe? Would a person lie to me and say they did it with prayer?

Should I believe it's prayer? Because a person said so and they can seemly do it on command?

I'd question a lot of assumptions I'd held - but nothing in the event would lead me to think this was definitely prayer. I'd probably think it was some pretty serious tech that I'd not known about (or had any idea we could do that), I'd be shocked we had come so far technologically and I'd be cautious of the person telling me it was prayer as I'd believe they were trying to manipulate me.

 

[Kylie]

Why should prayer be "testable"? If I ask you for a sandwich and you don't give me one, does that prove anything like you are assuming is the case with prayer?

Obviously, from a theistic standpoint, petitionary prayers don't have to be granted, as they involve relating to another person who has his own will.

The Bible makes a testable claim - if you have even a small amount of faith, you can pray for a mountain to move and the mountain will move. All I'm saying is to test the claim. If it works as promised, then I'll count it as evidence that the Bible is correct. If it does not work as promised, then I will count it as evidence the Bible is wrong.

And since such prayers obviously do not work, believers have to come up with all sorts of excuses as to why. It's just a figure of speech. It's metaphorical, not literal. Every single time the Bible presents such a testable claim and it fails (which happens quite a lot), believers come up with these excuses. Are you really surprised that I find the Bible unbelievable? Can you imagine if scientists did the same thing? Made amazing claims and then scrambled to come up with excuses to explain why they were wrong. "Oh, I wasn't really wrong, it was just Dave the lab assistant failed to properly calibrate the device!"

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

The Bible makes a testable claim - if you have even a small amount of faith, you can pray for a mountain to move and the mountain will move. All I'm saying is to test the claim. If it works as promised, then I'll count it as evidence that the Bible is correct. If it does not work as promised, then I will count it as evidence the Bible is wrong.

And since such prayers obviously do not work, believers have to come up with all sorts of excuses as to why. It's just a figure of speech. It's metaphorical, not literal. Every single time the Bible presents such a testable claim and it fails (which happens quite a lot), believers come up with these excuses. Are you really surprised that I find the Bible unbelievable? Can you imagine if scientists did the same thing? Made amazing claims and then scrambled to come up with excuses to explain why they were wrong. "Oh, I wasn't really wrong, it was just Dave the lab assistant failed to properly calibrate the device!"

We are assuming here that someone had the faith of a mustard seed to begin with. Right?

BTW - I'm not attacking you or your method. I just like to question things - a lot. And dig.

 

[Kylie]

No - I don't think that.

Well, I'm really getting that feeling...

I just meant that for me, a prayer and a moved mountain isn't enough. I'd need more. I'd ask if there are any other possible explanations for what I'm seeing.

I'd look at myself.
I'd wonder if I were delusional? What have I ingested? Am I sick? Am I on drugs?

And if others reported the same thing? If there were videos of this event happening? If other people confirmed that they saw the same thing you saw?

I'd look at the event.
Is it a trick? Is it possible to make people hallucinate? What affects my perceptions? Have I been stumped before by "magic tricks" I didn't understand? (yes). Is it possible this is an illusion?

And if surveyors confirmed that the mountain really did move?

If it's not me and the event is true, I'd look at science.
Could some tech do this? Should I assume it's impossible to do this? What do I really know about what the govt can do? Is tech that can transport and beam a mountain so hard to believe? Would a person lie to me and say they did it with prayer?

And given that we currently have no technology at all that could move a mountain like that, I think it's safe to assume that it wasn't some scientific phenomenon at work. Even if we DID have that kind of technology, why would it be used to make a prayer from you happen?

Should I believe it's prayer? Because a person said so and they can seemly do it on command?

Why not?

If I press a button and a light flashes, and then I press the button again and a light flashes, and every single time I press the button a light flashes and the light never flashes if I do not press the button, it's a very reasonable conclusion that pressing the button causes the light to flash, right?

I'd question a lot of assumptions I'd held - but nothing in the event would lead me to think this was definitely prayer. I'd probably think it was some pretty serious tech that I'd not known about (or had any idea we could do that), I'd be shocked we had come so far technologically and I'd be cautious of the person telling me it was prayer as I'd believe they were trying to manipulate me.

And it's this sort of thing that has lead me to conclude that you think atheists are just out to deny God by any means necessary.