Atheism (3)

[createdtoworship]

Who's talking about God? Why do you keep answering with the exact same off-topic answer?

I've been asking about HUMAN perception of sin, why do WE not view all sin as equal?

Don't answer with what God thinks, that's completely irrelevant. I'm asking why we were made in a way why we don't view all sin as equally bad. It would have provided us a chance at living life without sin.

so your saying why would God create us with a false view of sin? I don't know the answer to that question.

 

[dlamberth]

...God create us with a false view of sin?

I don't think He did. What I want to know is how do we start listening to the view that does come from God more directly?

The way I read Dave Ellis question is why from a Christian perspective are we made imperfect by God in the first place? And where's the perfection in God in doing that?


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[Tnmusicman]

So you believe that humans can know and understand everything? Not even in the scientific world do they know and understand everything. The humanist philosophy says we base our understanding of the world on what we can perceive with our senses and what we can comprehend with our minds. Anything that is said to make sense should make sense to us humans. Anything beyond human comprehension cannot instruct us because we cannot relate. Christianity is understanding and knowing that there is a power much more powerful than us and that we can not understand fully the mind of that power but we believe that power( God the Father) exists. You are judging the Christian God by your own finite mind. Therefore you make yourself out to be your God. And you are saying that you are all knowing and all wise and you are able to judge what is right and what is wrong.

Excellent answer!!!! You are wise, my brother.

 

[createdtoworship]

I don't think He did. What I want to know is how do we start listening to the view that does come from God more directly?

The way I read Dave Ellis question is why from a Christian perspective are we made imperfect by God in the first place? And where's the perfection in God in doing that?


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If you mean perfect as in good. I agree. However if you mean perfect as in perfect, well that would mean that we are perfect when we were created but became imperfect through sin. If we are perfectly good when created, thats sort of a misnomer. We cannot be perfectly good any more than we can be nominally good. We are simply good or not.

 

[Dave Ellis]

so your saying why would God create us with a false view of sin? I don't know the answer to that question.

Ok, thanks for your honesty.

However, now that we've established that God created us with a false sense of sin... what justification does he have to punish us for it if it's beyond our control??

Likewise, it's completely illogical to set up a series of laws, all equally bad... and then make the people bound by those laws unable to avoid committing them. Especially when the punishment is eternal torture... It's cruel and sadistic.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Excellent answer!!!! You are wise, my brother.

Since you seem to agree with his statement, perhaps you can answer the question to that passage.

First off, no scientist claims to know everything... So we can throw the first part out.

Secondly, if there are things that are beyond our comprehension or ability to see them.... then how do we know they are there? It would be impossible for us to detect them in the first place.

Even if Christianity is true, it's still an unjustified belief. You openly admit you have no evidence or proof.

 

[createdtoworship]

Ok, thanks for your honesty.

However, now that we've established that God created us with a false sense of sin... what justification does he have to punish us for it if it's beyond our control??

Likewise, it's completely illogical to set up a series of laws, all equally bad... and then make the people bound by those laws unable to avoid committing them. Especially when the punishment is eternal torture... It's cruel and sadistic.

we have not established that God created us with a false view of sin. It was a rhetorical question I was posing. If God who is perfect created us imperfect that would be a contradiction. So that cannot be the case, He must have created us perfect and we ruined ourselves by using a perfect free will and corrupting it by eating the forbidden fruit. That is why it's called the fall of man.

 

[Dave Ellis]

If you mean perfect as in good. I agree. However if you mean perfect as in perfect, well that would mean that we are perfect when we were created but became imperfect through sin. If we are perfectly good when created, thats sort of a misnomer. We cannot be perfectly good any more than we can be nominally good. We are simply good or not.

That's a contradiction.

If we were originally created perfect, then we would never have sinned in the first place.

If the Christian story is true... The fact that we apparently sinned and damned ourselves as a race, is a demonstration of a MAJOR flaw in our design. We were never perfect.

 

[Dave Ellis]

we have not established that God created us with a false view of sin. It was a rhetorical question I was posing. If God who is perfect created us imperfect that would be a contradiction. So that cannot be the case, He must have created us perfect and we ruined ourselves by using a perfect free will and corrupting it by eating the forbidden fruit. That is why it's called the fall of man.

We can demonstrate it.... if all sins are equal, and equally deserving of eternal torture, then we should view them equally.

If we don't view them equally, (for example the stealing a paperclip vs holocaust comparison), that means we have a false sense of sin. We would have to view stealing a paperclip on absolute par as any major war crime or atrocity in history. We simply don't do that.

And likewise, if we were capable of setting off the chain of events that lead to the fall of man, then that's a demonstration we were never perfect. Eve was susceptible to listening to talking snakes (which I may add also underlines her mental illness!), and therefore had a flaw. Adam had the same flaw.

 

[createdtoworship]

That's a contradiction.

If we were originally created perfect, then we would never have sinned in the first place.

If the Christian story is true... The fact that we apparently sinned and damned ourselves as a race, is a demonstration of a MAJOR flaw in our design. We were never perfect.

robots are not perfect, and thats the only thing that doesn't have a will of it's own.

 

[createdtoworship]

We can demonstrate it.... if all sins are equal, and equally deserving of eternal torture, then we should view them equally.

If we don't view them equally, (for example the stealing a paperclip vs holocaust comparison), that means we have a false sense of sin. We would have to view stealing a paperclip on absolute par as any major war crime or atrocity in history. We simply don't do that.

And likewise, if we were capable of setting off the chain of events that lead to the fall of man, then that's a demonstration we were never perfect. Eve was susceptible to listening to talking snakes (which I may add also underlines her mental illness!), and therefore had a flaw. Adam had the same flaw.

you are confusing the "we" in the picture. The Bible calls one the spiritual man and another the carnal man. The spiritual man views things the way God does. Only the carnal man views sin as you portray it.

 

[Dave Ellis]

robots are not perfect, and thats the only thing that doesn't have a will of it's own.

Um... ok? What's your point?

 

[Dave Ellis]

you are confusing the "we" in the picture. The Bible calls one the spiritual man and another the carnal man. The spiritual man views things the way God does. Only the carnal man views sin as you portray it.

Demonstrate that the "spiritual man" exists please.

 

[createdtoworship]

Demonstrate that the "spiritual man" exists please.

I am a child of God therefore I am a spiritual man led by the spirit of Christ. There are many others that are born again that are the same.

 

[Danyc]

I am a child of God therefore I am a spiritual man led by the spirit of Christ. There are many others that are born again that are the same.

Demonstrate it.

 

[createdtoworship]

Demonstrate it.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:14

 

[Dave Ellis]

I am a child of God therefore I am a spiritual man led by the spirit of Christ. There are many others that are born again that are the same.

I am a child of Thor, therefore I'm a spiritual man led by the spirit of the God of Thunder! There likewise are many others that are the same. And our god can beat up your god.

Prove me wrong...

And if you don't accept what I'm saying, I hate to tell you, that would invalidate your whole argument. We both have provided assertions and nothing to back them, If you are justified in rejecting my claim, I am justified in rejecting yours.

Now please demonstrate what you said is true.

 

[Dave Ellis]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 2:14

We've been over this.... The Bible isn't evidence, It's the assertion. Evidence is what shows the Bible to be true.

 

[createdtoworship]

We've been over this.... The Bible isn't evidence, It's the assertion. Evidence is what shows the Bible to be true.

You say that every time, but if this is not about the Bible then why are you on a christian forum?

 

[createdtoworship]

I am a child of Thor, therefore I'm a spiritual man led by the spirit of the God of Thunder! There likewise are many others that are the same. And our god can beat up your god.

Prove me wrong...

And if you don't accept what I'm saying, I hate to tell you, that would invalidate your whole argument. We both have provided assertions and nothing to back them, If you are justified in rejecting my claim, I am justified in rejecting yours.

Now please demonstrate what you said is true.

then have your God thor send lightening down and destroy my Bible right now! If He can't then He is not God!