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Atheism (3)

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createdtoworship

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Congratulations.... you know the definition.

Therefore you should know that nobody made that logical fallacy.



Probable, yes. The people who wrote the Gospels would have been born well after Jesus died. Therefore they either grew up hearing and believing the stories, or were converted by preachers during their lifetimes.

We have many examples of this type of behaviour... Muhammad claimed to have divine knowledge, and people followed him. Joseph Smith (Mormonism) did the same thing, L Ron Hubbard also did the same thing with Scientology. It's not unreasonable to say Paul made up this Jesus figure, convinced people he existed, performed miracles, and built a religion around him.



Prove the prophecy actually came true, then I can address it.

no, not really you are actually saying that these apostles fabricated the prophecy, then died for that self same lie. (being tortured gruesomely in between)
 
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createdtoworship

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Do you have any evidence that shows that Jesus triumphantly entered Jerusalem on April 6, 32AD? Or are you just taking the word of an anonymous guy, who wasn't there, writing this down based on what some other guys told him decades after the fact?

luke a notable historian writes about this:

Luke 19:28-44

not to mention the other eye witnesses, separate accounts of the exact same historical event....matthew 21:1-17, and john 12:9-19, and mark 11:1-11

secondly, we know from history that Jesus existed even from accounts not from the Bible. So we are to assume a "jewish man" came into the scene unbeknownst to anyone else, completely separate and un documented? Who would this man be? Who could it be? Most likely if it were not Jesus himself he would have been a spectator at the most popular event of the city the coming of the future messiah! He would have seen the messiah ride along those palm branches and flowers. This is the only other option. But if God did exist that makes prophecies true......why do it silently? Why go through the effort of making a prophecy that no one, I mean no one would ever know? Pointless, so your assumptions are unfounded.
 
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Dave Ellis

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no, not really you are actually saying that these apostles fabricated the prophecy, then died for that self same lie. (being tortured gruesomely in between)

How do you draw that conclusion?

We don't know anything about the guys that wrote the gospels, apart from the fact they lived decades after the fact, couldn't possibly have met Jesus, and therefore were not apostles.

We have no idea if the guys who wrote the gospels died for their beliefs, or were ever even tortured. No doubt Christians were later on, but we have no justification to claim the authors of the bible died in any specific way at all.
 
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Dave Ellis

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luke a notable historian writes about this:

Luke 19:28-44

not to mention the other eye witnesses, separate accounts of the exact same historical event....matthew 21:1-17, and john 12:9-19, and mark 11:1-11

secondly, we know from history that Jesus existed even from accounts not from the Bible. So we are to assume a "jewish man" came into the scene unbeknownst to anyone else, completely separate and un documented? Who would this man be? Who could it be? Most likely if it were not Jesus himself he would have been a spectator at the most popular event of the city the coming of the future messiah! He would have seen the messiah ride along those palm branches and flowers. This is the only other option. But if God did exist that makes prophecies true......why do it silently? Why go through the effort of making a prophecy that no one, I mean no one would ever know? Pointless, so your assumptions are unfounded.

Again, going on my reply above... We don't know who the authors were, but we do know they could not possibly be eyewitnesses. They are relaying on miracle claims passed on through decades of oral history and folk stories. None of the biblical authors are reliable historical sources.

And we have no contemporary extra-biblical work that talks about Jesus either. The closest source is Josephus who wrote 70+ Years after the fact, and didn't believe in Jesus himself.
 
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createdtoworship

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Again, going on my reply above... We don't know who the authors were, but we do know they could not possibly be eyewitnesses. They are relaying on miracle claims passed on through decades of oral history and folk stories. None of the biblical authors are reliable historical sources.

And we have no contemporary extra-biblical work that talks about Jesus either. The closest source is Josephus who wrote 70+ Years after the fact, and didn't believe in Jesus himself.

you forget pliny the younger's testimony of Christ.
 
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createdtoworship

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How do you draw that conclusion?

We don't know anything about the guys that wrote the gospels, apart from the fact they lived decades after the fact, couldn't possibly have met Jesus, and therefore were not apostles.

We have no idea if the guys who wrote the gospels died for their beliefs, or were ever even tortured. No doubt Christians were later on, but we have no justification to claim the authors of the bible died in any specific way at all.

they write from first hand experience census's and other historical events such as who was emperor at the time....so they had to be eye witnesses. Unless they lied. Then they died for the lie (being gruesomely tortured in between)
 
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Dave Ellis

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you forget pliny the younger's testimony of Christ.


You mean the testimony about how he persecuted the Christians.... in 110-112AD?

He made no testimony towards Christ himself, he only spoke of the Christians.
 
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Dave Ellis

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they write from first hand experience census's and other historical events such as who was emperor at the time....so they had to be eye witnesses. Unless they lied. Then they died for the lie (being gruesomely tortured in between)


What? This whole section is nonsensical.

First off, what census?

Secondly, just because they knew who the emperor was proves nothing! If I said space aliens invaded the planet in 1919 and we fought them off after a long struggle, and Woodrow Wilson was president of the United States at the time.... does that make my story remotely true?

Thirdly, drop the "died for a lie" bit, I've already explained to you we have no idea who wrote the gospels, so we don't know how those people died. It's very possible they died of natural causes as old men.
 
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createdtoworship

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You mean the testimony about how he persecuted the Christians.... in 110-112AD?

He made no testimony towards Christ himself, he only spoke of the Christians.

Pliny the younger A.D. 61-112

quote from his history on how to deal with christians:

"Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ
 
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Dave Ellis

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Pliny the younger A.D. 61-112

quote from his history on how to deal with christians:

"Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ — none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do — these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ



And?
 
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createdtoworship

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you said

He made no testimony towards Christ himself, he only spoke of the Christians.

and I showed where he mentions Christ. So there is a historical document that has Christ in it!
 
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Dave Ellis

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you said



and I showed where he mentions Christ. So there is a historical document that has Christ in it!


Wow....

Did you actually read what you posted?

The paragraph is speaking about former Christians who cursed Christ. This is not testimony about Christ... it's testimony of the actions of former Christians.

Do you really think just because a paragraph that includes the word "Christ", that was written a century after Jesus was supposedly alive, counts as any kind of evidence whatsoever that this guy actually existed?

Are you really trying to make that case? Is this the best you can do for evidence? If so, that's a flat out demonstration of how painfully weak your case is.
 
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createdtoworship

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Wow....

Did you actually read what you posted?

The paragraph is speaking about former Christians who cursed Christ. This is not testimony about Christ... it's testimony of the actions of former Christians.

Do you really think just because a paragraph that includes the word "Christ", that was written a century after Jesus was supposedly alive, counts as any kind of evidence whatsoever that this guy actually existed?

Are you really trying to make that case? Is this the best you can do for evidence? If so, that's a flat out demonstration of how painfully weak your case is.

it's how to deal with Christians in a historical document. If he didn't believe that Christ existed, why say it!!! If you want to disprove it, you will have to disprove pliny from being a historical writer!
 
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createdtoworship

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Dave here is the full transcript if you want to rethinks your position on it.....(that it was the christians talking and not pliny....lol)


"Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny the Younger

You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age. "
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Dave here is the full transcript if you want to rethinks your position on it.....(that it was the christians talking and not pliny....lol)


"Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny the Younger

You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age. "

You realize that Pliny the Younger's letters give no actual evidence that Jesus really existed, right?
 
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dlamberth

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Dave Ellis

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it's how to deal with Christians in a historical document. If he didn't believe that Christ existed, why say it!!! If you want to disprove it, you will have to disprove pliny from being a historical writer!


He speaks of Christians, not Christ.

If he were punishing Ancient Greeks, he'd be talking about them rejecting their beliefs in Zeus. Just because he mentioned the name Zeus, would he be advocating the idea that Zeus is real too?

Give me a break, this argument is laughably bad.

Pliny's work stands on it's own merits. He describes how Christians were dealt with in the late pagan-era Roman Empire. There are a number of other documents that back up what Pliny is describing as well as far as Christian persecution goes. Nowhere in this work does he talk about Jesus as a person, nor describe anything about him. All we can gather is that the Christians follow someone or something called Christ, just as the ancient Greeks followed Zeus. And ain't that a news flash!!
 
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Dave Ellis

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Dave here is the full transcript if you want to rethinks your position on it.....(that it was the christians talking and not pliny....lol)


"Pliny the Younger, Letters 10.96-97
Pliny the Younger to the Emperor Trajan

It is my practice, my lord, to refer to you all matters concerning which I am in doubt. For who can better give guidance to my hesitation or inform my ignorance? I have never participated in trials of Christians. I therefore do not know what offenses it is the practice to punish or investigate, and to what extent. And I have been not a little hesitant as to whether there should be any distinction on account of age or no difference between the very young and the more mature; whether pardon is to be granted for repentance, or, if a man has once been a Christian, it does him no good to have ceased to be one; whether the name itself, even without offenses, or only the offenses associated with the name are to be punished.

Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.

Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do--these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I therefore postponed the investigation and hastened to consult you. For the matter seemed to me to warrant consulting you, especially because of the number involved. For many persons of every age, every rank, and also of both sexes are and will be endangered. For the contagion of this superstition has spread not only to the cities but also to the villages and farms. But it seems possible to check and cure it. It is certainly quite clear that the temples, which had been almost deserted, have begun to be frequented, that the established religious rites, long neglected, are being resumed, and that from everywhere sacrificial animals are coming, for which until now very few purchasers could be found. Hence it is easy to imagine what a multitude of people can be reformed if an opportunity for repentance is afforded.

Trajan to Pliny the Younger

You observed proper procedure, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those who had been denounced to you as Christians. For it is not possible to lay down any general rule to serve as a kind of fixed standard. They are not to be sought out; if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it--that is, by worshiping our gods--even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon through repentance. But anonymously posted accusations ought to have no place in any prosecution. For this is both a dangerous kind of precedent and out of keeping with the spirit of our age. "


Yes, I know, I've read the work before.

Thank you for proving my point by the way, nowhere in his entire work does he mention anything about Jesus himself.

The closest he gets to it is that the Christians follow Christ, however that doesn't do anything to prove anything about him, or even his existence. He could just as easily have written the Greeks worshiped Zeus, and the Vikings worshiped Wotan.

Simply saying that Christians follow Christ is proof of nothing apart from the fact Christians follow Christ. 1,900 years later, that's still the case.

I'm wondering where the contemporary historians were to chronicle the Jewish Messiah's life and all his miracles. You'd think someone would have written something down!
 
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