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well give your definition of "sin" and well go from there. And I already know you don't believe in the Bibles' definition.
Or...that whole theology needs to be thrown out and replaced by the Heart of Love as the One True Way.That's a complete load of bunk!
If the God and his law was perfect, it would have been perfect in spirit and results.
If the results were not perfect, that means God made a mistake and is no longer perfect.
And why wouldn't he have created beings who were perfectly capable of following the law?
My main intention, and I am humbly obligated to confess that it may not have been portrayed concisely enough, was that to accurately understand references in the Bible to slavery, we must understand that the Mosaic Law (which is the most frequently quoted portion of scripture regarding this topic) was not given until aprroximately 1500 B.C.
This is important because by this time, large civilizations and societies such as Hammurabi with his law code in Babylon and the various Egyptian Dynasties had been in existence for centuries and slavery was an institution that was common to all.
God, in giving the Law to Moses, was not primarily concerned with social reform i.e. the abolishment of slavery. The main reasons were because slavery then was not the slave trading, man stealing, and sex trafficking slavery we so commonly assoicate with the word in modern times.
Secondly, it was God's intention that His people who had been the recipients of His laws and precepts would come to love their neighbors and honor and respect them and treat them they way that they wanted to be treated. This influential, altruistic and benevolent love would over time permeate the Hebrew peoples and become the impetus in the abolishment of slavery altogether from the Israelite Nation. A lot like the influence of Christian men and women in the abolishment of slavery in and through the British parliament championed by men like William Wilberforce.
Sure it is.... if God is ultimate perfection, it's impossible that he'd make a law that wouldn't be 100% effective.
Otherwise, he did something that is not perfect, and therefore he is not perfect.
In order for him to stay as a perfect being, his will and plan must have been for everything to turn out exactly as it has.
Nice dodge, almost worked.... but you're still attempting to change the subject.
The question was why not make every sin as morally reprehensible as Child Rape or Murder? God obviously made us in a way that sin was unavoidable.
I honestly don't follow your logic. Try giving a definition of sin, they we will go from there. (I already know you don't believe in the Bibles definition). Because it sounds like you want God to make us all like robots to where every action, every sin is the same level of ease or difficulty. But in a complex universe it is just not that simple. Especially not without programming us as robots with no free will.
Don't need to give a definition of sin, I'm hardly using a different one (for the sake of argument).
And the free will objection is irrelevant - again, it easy for most people to avoid child abuse. Why is god tampering with our free will there?! Of course, no one thinks this. So why not make our reactions to other sins the same?
I am sorry I dont' follow you.
First off, how do you know what God's exact motives were in stating his laws?
Secondly, why would God purposefully put forward a system of laws that goes against things that are moral? If he was moral, he couldn't do that with a good conscience. What's the point of setting laws that govern the price you can buy your slaves at? I can't foresee how a moral being could ever do that.
Im glad you asked.
God stated several times what His specific aims were in giving the Law to His people. I shall enumerate them if you desire for me to. Needless to say, the Law had several important purposes and they all were benevolent in nature.
Secondly, God never purposefully put forward a system of laws that went against things that are moral.
In understanding what God has said about us when compared to Him, we know that God, being who He is, is not going to think like we think, act like we act, or have the same view of the world as we do. God sees the whole forest where as we, being low and finite, see only the lower portions of the trunks of the trees. We are unable to even see one complete tree in its entirety and there is a whole forest that surrounds us!
To us, yes, several times throughout the Bible God is recorded as having done things which to some make no sense. Now, they make sense to me because I have a better understanding of who God is and what His purposes in creating the world were.
Most misunderstandings in these existential questions with regards to God's actions can be better understood by reading the Bible as a whole without (as far as is humanly possible) any preconceived notions or ideas. Now I am not saying that when you read the Bible you have preconceived ideas about it, but what I am saying is that it is all too easy to extraploate what we "think" is true or what we "think" is moral or immoral onto the passages in the scripture that speak on the topics we are discussing.
Just as it is the responsibility of the apologist to approach atheism with humility, sincerity, integrity, and honesty; so too, it is the responsibility of the atheist to approach the Holy Scriptures with the same attitude.
Volumes and volumes of literature have been written on these specific subjects which we are discussing. So much so that if they were all collected, they could fill a whole library! So anything written here will be only at best, a small fraction of what is available on the topic from both sides.
Actually, yes he did.... he wrote the law, and there are things included in that law which are not moral.
And this is one of the things about the Christian Worldview that I find disgusting.... people are taught that they aren't worthy and are mere peons to some cosmic magic man that we have no reason to assume even exists.
I tend to take more of an enlightened worldview. We are the highest form of life that we know of, and we should strive to make ourselves even better.
Really, well... explain how you got a better understanding of God than anyone else, especially if his ways are beyond our comprehension?
However, what we think is true depends on what reason we have to believe it. I'm open to accepting anything (with enough evidence) that isn't already directly contradicted by known fact.
As for morals, there are also some parts of the bible which are clearly immoral under any sane standard. Bringing up those points is quite valid.
I find it offensive when people try to justify clearly immoral teachings, and pointing that out to them sometimes makes them realize what they're actually advocating. So yes, it's best to show humility whenever possible, but sometimes it's best to make exceptions!
The point he is getting at is the same one I was getting at.
Some sins are morally reprehensible to us, for example, child abuse, murder, rape, etc.
However, some sins are not only moral to us, some are purely natural feelings (greed, lust, etc.)
If God truly wanted us to refrain from sin, he could have made is in a way where we view greed or lust the same way we view child rape.
For example: If he made everyone in a way where we'd emotionally view every sin as badly as child rape, it would be incredibly easy for everyone to avoid sin. Instead, he didn't do that. He rigged it in a way where sin is basically unavoidable for us.... then he punishes us with death and eternal torture for it.
What kind of moral being would set things up that way? It makes no sense.
I can't tell you have many times I've been told that we are like dirty rags in the eyes of God.Now if any Christian teaches that we are worthless and mere peons, I most assuredly declare that they are not teaching the truth!
Christians DO view all sin the same. Stealing a paper clip is not worse than robbing a bank. (they should view them the same) as God does. It's the heart of the matter not how much funds is taken.
for this reason it's hard for me to follow the logic.
We're not claiming that some sins are worse than others.
We're pointing out that some sins are much easier for the majority of people to avoid committing because they're disgusted by it, for example.
We're then asking why couldn't god have made people so that more -if not all - sins triggered that sense of revulsion, making it much less likely that people will sin in the first place.
We do not consider the common revulsion to certain acts to be a tampering with free will, so merely feeling revulsion at sin would not affect our freedom to choose, it would just make it easier to make the better choice. Less people sin, less people run the risk of ending up in hell. Win win. So why has god not done this?
Then they and God have no sense of perspective at all and quibble over frivoities that imperfect beings (designed so) are bound to commit at some point.
You think the heart of someone who steals a paperclip flippantly has the same heart as someone who would rob a bank?
God cares about the heart, not how much is stolen for example.
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