At What Point Does One "Shake the Dust From Your Sandals"?

[Tolworth John]

I’m about to the point of considering American society toxic and no longer worth the investment. The climate of rage and hate has become so palpable as to become noxious

So where are you going to?

The monks in the middle ages tried to cut themslves off froma sinfull world, without any sucess.

As a Christian we are all called to be salt and light to our generation. There is no promise that we will change society, in fact the only promise is that we will be treated as Jeus was.

 

[dqhall]

No, it's not a circular argument to say that salvation is by faith apart from works, as Paul also says, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works" Rom 4:4-6

Are you saying that Paul's statement is a circular argument?

Paul did not always have a regular job. He did teach. He may have been accused of begging, but God knew Paul was giving. Teachings and righteous prayer are considered works by some, but laziness and unemployment by others. Christians in prison may be prevented from gainful employment, but may be justified if they are faithful to God.

 

[bcbsr]

Paul did not always have a regular job. He did teach. He may have been accused of begging, but God knew Paul was giving. Teachings and righteous prayer are considered works by some, but laziness and unemployment by others. Christians in prison may be prevented from gainful employment, but may be justified if they are faithful to God.

You kind of lost me there. What does Rom 4:4-6 have to do with Paul's employment?

 

[JimBeta]

We have to preach the gospel but if there are no ears that want to hear we should seize our effort and time there and go to another place.

 

[aiki]

after a few decades of humanity’s nonsense I find myself sitting with Jonah, looking at Ninevah and wanting to watch God burn it. I talked with the Chaplains about it but part of me wonders if I am slipping into the wrong, or if there are parts of society that are reaching that “sandal dusting” point.

Ezekiel 33:11
11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live...

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I keep waffling between thinking it’s me and thinking that society in general has become toxic and just isn’t worth the investment.

We are all of us "toxic." It's why Jesus had to come and die for us. It's a good thing he didn't conclude that we weren't "worth the investment." If there is one thing Scripture makes clear, it is that when we truly love God, we come to love what He loves. God so loved the world, the Bible says. What, then, does your growing hatred of the "toxic" lost suggest about your relationship with God?

Romans 5:7-8
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Matthew 5:44-47
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,
45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The Bible says that there does come a time when one should “shake the dust from their sandals” and forego any further efforts of ministry. I was wondering when one considers this time should be.

That's a good question, Tyler. From what we actually read in the verses in the Gospels where Jesus actually says this, I think we need to notice something about the semantics. So, let's look at Matthew 10:14

If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet.​

We should probably notice that the context and conditions given here by Jesus to His disciples are prescribed for situations when some group of individuals, somewhere, refuse to welcome or even listen to the Gospel. In such an instance, the disciple (us?) involved in this matter has no choice to continue offering the Gospel.

In these kinds of cases, it is they who have forced YOU out, and it's not really you who have decided this in reaction against them. No, they've made the final decision that YOU need to go! So................when that happens, as a testimony before God that you indeed tried to reach out to those who are rejecting the Gospel, you then show that "you tried," cleansing yourself of their ... **Dust**, **Dust**, **Dust**

...and then you move on with your life.

 

[Daftendirekt]

I think God will make it known to you when to "give up." If you still feel spiritual calling to evangelize that person, keep at it! Never quit because your frustrated. Then again, some people deliberately stop their ears and cannot be redeemed. However, we can't know for sure who these people are unless the Holy Spirit stops invigorating you to help them.

 

[dqhall]

You kind of lost me there. What does Rom 4:4-6 have to do with Paul's employment?

Paul’s mission was teaching the Gospel. How was he saved? If he was making tents he was paid, but the Gospel was not preached. God needed him preaching the Gospel. Some might have complained he was eating and drinking, but not working. If all he did was work making tents he would have been a great worker. It is difficult to be faithful. If his preaching was by faith, he would have been saved, even if neighbors chided for not working. Am not sure if this helps. Words are not as convincing as actions.

 

[bcbsr]

Paul’s mission was teaching the Gospel. How was he saved? If he was making tents he was paid, but the Gospel was not preached. God needed him preaching the Gospel. Some might have complained he was eating and drinking, but not working. If all he did was work making tents he would have been a great worker. It is difficult to be faithful. If his preaching was by faith, he would have been saved, even if neighbors chided for not working. Am not sure if this helps. Words are not as convincing as actions.

What makes you think he couldn't both make tents and preach. I've done so for 40 years. Paul was saved not by preaching the gospel, but rather by believing in Jesus.

 

[dqhall]

What makes you think he couldn't both make tents and preach. I've done so for 40 years. Paul was saved not by preaching the gospel, but rather by believing in Jesus.

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

 

[bcbsr]

What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I don't follow you. But since we're talking about Paul's working, he can speak for himself:

Acts 20:33-35
I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’"

2Thess 3:6-14
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him.

1Cor 9:11-15
If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. But I have not used any of these rights.

All these indicate that if one is going to minister, he should also work at a secular job and earn a living.

2Cor 12:14
Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

Ministers getting paid by their congregation is like children paying their parents. It's kind of backwards from Paul's perspective.

Of course you'll never hear this from the pulpit for obvious reasons.

 

[RDKirk]

We have to preach the gospel but if there are no ears that want to hear we should seize our effort and time there and go to another place.

If there are no ears to hear, you're not in the place the Holy Spirit told you to go, or you're not saying the words the Holy Spirit told you to say.

Failure only comes from not following His instructions.

 

[dqhall]

I don't follow you. But since we're talking about Paul's working, he can speak for himself:

Acts 20:33-35
I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’"

2Thess 3:6-14
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him.

1Cor 9:11-15
If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. But I have not used any of these rights.

All these indicate that if one is going to minister, he should also work at a secular job and earn a living.

2Cor 12:14
Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

Ministers getting paid by their congregation is like children paying their parents. It's kind of backwards from Paul's perspective.

Of course you'll never hear this from the pulpit for obvious reasons.

Your quotes help me see a faithful person is not a lazy person. A scholar must read much as part of his work.

I remember reading about Paul explaining that he and Timothy had to do labor to support themselves. He also thanked congregations for their support and I presume thanked them for their hospitality and finances. He collected money from his churches for the poor saints in Jerusalem and traveled with a group of men to Jerusalem to distribute the donations where he was taken into custody and sent to a prison in the port of Caesarea north of Joppa/Tel Aviv.

 

[dqhall]

I don't follow you. But since we're talking about Paul's working, he can speak for himself:

Acts 20:33-35
I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing. You yourselves know that these hands of mine have supplied my own needs and the needs of my companions. In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’"

2Thess 3:6-14
In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat. And as for you, brothers, never tire of doing what is right. If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him.

1Cor 9:11-15
If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. But I have not used any of these rights.

All these indicate that if one is going to minister, he should also work at a secular job and earn a living.

2Cor 12:14
Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.

Ministers getting paid by their congregation is like children paying their parents. It's kind of backwards from Paul's perspective.

Of course you'll never hear this from the pulpit for obvious reasons.

I found a good article about Paul making tents in Corinth, then receiving financial assistance sent from Philippi allowing him to continue his work, while turning down financial support from the Corinthian believers.
Corinth in Acts: Paul’s Financial Support

 

[humblesoldier]

No doubt. I know my patience and temper have eroded. I feel more like the man in the debt parable. Every time I'm about to lose my cool with the nonsense this society generates I get a stern look and a presentation of my tab.

As an advise, stop now before you go down that rabbit hole you seem to be going into. If you continue to think this way, soon you will start hating people in general, then you'll begin to imagine everyone is against you, then perhaps imagine God has given up on you since everything around you is eroded with hate. And then who knows where you'll end up. This same thing happened to someone I know very well ...me!

I moved my family from a very toxic place we were living at. Nothing wrong with that however, we went to what we thought was a much better place in the bible belt. The new place was less crowded with more churches and more church going folks and we enjoyed it for a little while. Soon it became just like the placed we had left behind, crowded and toxic! Got even worst when we realized a lot of folks around here who claimed to be saved don't even know Christ, let alone the meaning of being born-again. All they know is they grew up in the church.

My point is simply to let you know that you could be on the wrong path brother. Surrender to Christ and let Him bring peace into your heart in the moments of storms. I know there are many of those moments in this toxic world but it is the only way to keep sane. Peace!