At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[FreeGrace2]

Think about it for a minute. If Christ died for all and all are not saved, why not?

Again, because His death doesn't save. Nowhere in the Bible is that taught. Only in Calvinistic circles.

Romans 4:25 - who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Justification is equal with salvation. So, it was His resurrection that provides salvation for believers.

And all the verses on how to have salvation or eternal life are based on faith in Christ, not in His death.

Calvinism is wrong because its premises are wrong.

 

[zoidar]

Did Jesus pay for our sins on the cross? Or merely make it possible for the self-righteous to save themselves?

I don't think we get anywhere by this. Maybe a better approach is if we discuss different texts?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Some believe once saved always saved, with some scripture to suggest this

Quite a bit, actually. And John 10:28 couldn't be more clear on th subject.

. Some believe they can lose salvation, I think I believe later. You can lose salvation, if one continue of not listening to what God Say and keep being oneself.

Where is any verse that clearly states or obviously indicates that salvation can be lost.

John 10:28 refutes any such notions.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If he died for all, why aren't all saved?

Getting kinda tired, Dave. The Bible plainly says He died for all.

You're just kicking against the goads.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So they, not Jesus, are the savior of themselves?

No, Dave. They BELIEVE in their Savior, who died for them. And He saves them.

Are you not aware of 1 Cor 1;21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Did Jesus pay for our sins on the cross? Or merely make it possible for the self-righteous to save themselves?

The answer to your first question is a resounding YES! No one goes to hell because of their sins. For "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Rom 3:23.

If sin were the issue of who gets into heaven, then we'd ALL (and I do mean every last human being) would end up in hell.

The key is who was given eternal life. Their names are in the book of life. Check it out in Rev 20:15. Those who never received eternal life will be cast into the lake of fire.

It's all real clear, Dave, but your false premises keep you from seeing the truth.

 

[Dave L]

I don't think we get anywhere by this. Maybe a better approach is if we discuss different texts?

Many texts prove limited atonement. But we gut is of its value to save when we make it universal. In that case, it only makes it possible for people to save themselves by trusting in the arm of the flesh. This is a major sin in the OT.

 

[Dave L]

The answer to your first question is a resounding YES! No one goes to hell because of their sins. For "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Rom 3:23.

If sin were the issue of who gets into heaven, then we'd ALL (and I do mean every last human being) would end up in hell.

The key is who was given eternal life. Their names are in the book of life. Check it out in Rev 20:15. Those who never received eternal life will be cast into the lake of fire.

It's all real clear, Dave, but your false premises keep you from seeing the truth.

So Jesus died for all but God cheated him by saving only the names written in the book of life?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So Jesus died for all but God cheated him by saving only the names written in the book of life?

Your sarcasm of Scripture is quite shocking, Dave.

How did God cheat His Son? That's quite a perverse notion.

God gives ALL believers to Christ. It's that simple. But you'd rather make is really difficult, huh.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is NO "Visible CHurch System" that bears much resemblance at all to the "Apostolic Church" which was already starting to fragment and denominationalize in Paul's time.

There is and it’s not hard to see in the early church writings.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God is not mocked. God's forgiveness is not based on the value of your apology.

Your regeneration, your changed heart, your source of living water, your everlasting faith by the work of the Holy Spirit, having become one with Christ, will not allow you to continue in sin. So don't. Maybe you will find you too are one of his. Pursue Christ.

Then how can John 15:6 be true? If your theology lines up with all scripture you should be able to answer this question.

 

[zoidar]

Many texts prove limited atonement. But we gut is of its value to save when we make it universal. In that case, it only makes it possible for people to save themselves by trusting in the arm of the flesh. This is a major sin in the OT.

If you choose ONE NT text. Which would you choose as a proof for LA, if you can't choose John 10?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Again your still avoiding my question. Why can’t you trust the interpretation of the Orthodox Church? It doesn’t contradict scripture it’s viewing scripture from another perspective. The same perspective that the men who declared the authenticity of the NT scriptures held. The very men whom you yourself said were disciples of the apostles. So why can’t you trust this interpretation if I’ve shown you evidence of what these men taught?

no thanks

 

[Dave L]

If you choose ONE NT text. Which would you choose as a proof for LA, if you can't choose John 10?

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

 

[zoidar]

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

I'll get back to you on this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Dave L said: ↑
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

I'll get back to you on this.

Easy. There are verses that tell us that Christ died for the church. But that doesn't exclude everyone else that He died for.

Of course He died for the church. And the church is part of humanity, of which He also died.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you saved when you're
Called
Called and Chosen
Called, Chosen and Faithful

Some believe once saved always saved, with some scripture to suggest this. Some believe they can lose salvation, with some scripture to suggests this. I do not wish to argue, debate over this, just your thoughts on the above question, whichever side you're on.



Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him

We no longer look to be served. We look to serve and give our lives for others. No longer fight for privilege, influence and status. We esteem others better than ourselves and put their interests above our own.

Peace be with all those in the body of Christ

I have been saved.
I am being saved.
I will be saved.

Salvation is the objective thing that happened two thousand years ago when our Lord suffered, died, and rose again. We received that salvation, and Christ's work is appropriated to us, through Word and Sacrament, by which God gives us faith, so that the preaching of the Gospel brings faith (Romans 10:17), and through faith we are justified. Thus we can speak of Objective Justification, the objective work of Christ for the whole world, by which all have been justified (Romans 5:18) and Subjective Justification, that is, how I as an individual receive and benefit of that work, which is by grace alone through faith, this is the gift of God apart from ourselves, not by works (Romans 5:1-2, Ephesians 2:8-9).

We are also being saved, present tense. Salvation is the ongoing work of God in our lives. St. Paul speaks of our "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), this is not about our justification, but our sanctification, our living out our faith in this life in humble obedience to God in love. It is about God's faithful promise that the work He began He will continue in us until the day the Lord Jesus returns, "He who began a good work in you will continue that good work until the Day of the Lord Jesus" (Philippians 1:6) as we are being conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:9).

And we will be saved, on the Last Day. The good work began in us, continued, will be completed, when we are raised up from the dead, and glorified, the "redemption of our bodies" (Romans 8:23), as we look forward in hope of God's promise that "If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11), which is why the author of Hebrews says that Christ shall appear a second time to "save those who eagerly await Him" (Hebrews 9:28).

We have been saved.
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dave L]

Dave L said: ↑
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

Easy. There are verses that tell us that Christ died for the church. But that doesn't exclude everyone else that He died for.

Of course He died for the church. And the church is part of humanity, of which He also died.

If he died for the church, that limits his death to the church.

 

[Dave L]

I have been saved.
I am being saved.
I will be saved.

Salvation is the objective thing that happened two thousand years ago when our Lord suffered, died, and rose again. We received that salvation, and Christ's work is appropriated to us, through Word and Sacrament, by which God gives us faith, so that the preaching of the Gospel brings faith (Romans 10:17), and through faith we are justified. Thus we can speak of Objective Justification, the objective work of Christ for the whole world, by which all have been justified (Romans 5:18) and Subjective Justification, that is, how I as an individual receive and benefit of that work, which is by grace alone through faith, this is the gift of God apart from ourselves, not by works (Romans 5:1-2, Ephesians 2:8-9).

We are also being saved, present tense. Salvation is the ongoing work of God in our lives. St. Paul speaks of our "working out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), this is not about our justification, but our sanctification, our living out our faith in this life in humble obedience to God in love. It is about God's faithful promise that the work He began He will continue in us until the day the Lord Jesus returns, "He who began a good work in you will continue that good work until the Day of the Lord Jesus" (Philippians 1:6) as we are being conformed to the image of Christ (Romans 8:9).

And we will be saved, on the Last Day. The good work began in us, continued, will be completed, when we are raised up from the dead, and glorified, the "redemption of our bodies" (Romans 8:23), as we look forward in hope of God's promise that "If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." (Romans 8:11), which is why the author of Hebrews says that Christ shall appear a second time to "save those who eagerly await Him" (Hebrews 9:28).

We have been saved.
We are being saved.
We will be saved.

-CryptoLutheran

I think Luther gave us one of the best views on salvation ever.

"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavours, will, and works, and absolutely depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retain a confidence in himself and do not utterly despair in himself, so long he is not humbled before God; but he proposes to himself some place, some time, or some work, whereby he may at length attain unto salvation. But he who hesitates not to depend wholly upon the good-will of God, he totally despairs in himself, chooses nothing for himself, but waits for God to work in him; and such an one, is the nearest unto grace, that he might be saved."

Martin Luther. The Bondage of the Will.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

There is and it’s not hard to see in the early church writings.

And it's also not hard to see that PAUL KNEW that things were going to "fall apart" in the near future, and that serious HEresies, and pagan corruption would creep into the "Visible Church" (which was already happening - Paul wasn't sure the Galatians were even a "Christian Church" any more). By Luther's time the Catholics were pretty much DEVOID of any Spiritual truth at all, and had even trashed Salvation by FAITH (Eph 2:8,9) in favor of their "Works salvation heresy".