At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[zoidar]

If he died for the church, that limits his death to the church.

Well, no! But I will reply when I have more time.

 

[Dave L]

Well, no! But I will reply when I have more time.

Nobody outside of the church is saved.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Again, because His death doesn't save. Nowhere in the Bible is that taught. Only in Calvinistic circles.

Romans 4:25 - who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Justification is equal with salvation. So, it was His resurrection that provides salvation for believers.

And all the verses on how to have salvation or eternal life are based on faith in Christ, not in His death.

Calvinism is wrong because its premises are wrong.

What do these passages mean ?

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. "By His stripes you are healed."

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

hope this helps !!!

 

[ViaCrucis]

And it's also not hard to see that PAUL KNEW that things were going to "fall apart" in the near future, and that serious HEresies, and pagan corruption would creep into the "Visible Church" (which was already happening - Paul wasn't sure the Galatians were even a "Christian Church" any more). By Luther's time the Catholics were pretty much DEVOID of any Spiritual truth at all, and had even trashed Salvation by FAITH (Eph 2:8,9) in favor of their "Works salvation heresy".

If by the time of Luther the Church were "devoid of any spiritual truth at all" then that renders the Reformation itself meaningless. The Reformation depends upon the truth of the Catholic faith. That's something that so many modern Protestants fail to understand because they don't know what the Reformation was even about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dave L]

If by the time of Luther the Church were "devoid of any spiritual truth at all" then that renders the Reformation itself meaningless. The Reformation depends upon the truth of the Catholic faith. That's something that so many modern Protestants fail to understand because they don't know what the Reformation was even about.

-CryptoLutheran

The big issue with Luther and all the Reformers was free will being a false teaching contrary to the Council of Ephesus in 431. Hence his excelent book "The bondage of the will".

 

[FreeGrace2]

If he died for the church, that limits his death to the church.

No it doesn't.

But you just keep ignoring or rejecting all the verses that SAY plainly that He died for everyone.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What do these passages mean ?

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

This means Christ took our penalty for sin.

1 Peter 2:24
He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. "By His stripes you are healed."

The same.

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself

He paid the penalty.

Romans 5:10
For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

hope this helps !!!

Being reconciled isn't being saved. But I see that you think so.

Christ paid the sin debt to satisfy the Father's justice. That frees God to save those who believe because their sin debt has been paid.

But the key always remains that salvation is through faith. That means faith in His sacrifical death on the cross.

 

[BNR32FAN]

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4 (KJV 1900)

There’s a couple questions you need to ask yourself. Can a person be joined to Christ without being born again?

No one comes to Me unless The Father draws him.

Can someone who has been born again return back to a sinful way of life?

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30‬ ‭NASB

Will those who turn back to sin receive eternal life?

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB

A person who is born again can once again become a son of disobedience, lose his inheritance in the kingdom of God, and receive God’s wrath.

1 John 5:4 is saying that you are born of God WHEN you are overcoming the world.


“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1-2‬ ‭NASB

“Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭NASB

John is addressing believers and even including himself in this message.

“This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:5-7‬ ‭NASB

Since we know that no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him then we can know that no one can fail to abide in Christ whom The Father has not drawn. Only those whom The Father has drawn can come to Christ and fail to remain in Him.

 

[Dave L]

There’s a couple questions you need to ask yourself. Can a person be joined to Christ without being born again?

No one comes to Me unless The Father draws him.

Can someone who has been born again return back to a sinful way of life?

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30‬ ‭NASB

Will those who turn back to sin receive eternal life?

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB

A person who is born again can once again become a son of disobedience, lose his inheritance in the kingdom of God, and receive God’s wrath.

1 John 5:4 is saying that you are born of God WHEN you are overcoming the world.


“Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1-2‬ ‭NASB

“Watch yourselves, that you do not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭NASB

John is addressing believers and even including himself in this message.

“This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:5-7‬ ‭NASB

Since we know that no one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him then we can know that no one can fail to abide in Christ whom The Father has not drawn. Only those whom The Father has drawn can come to Christ and fail to remain in Him.

The Corinthian brother involved in incest became repentant after Paul ordered Satan to kill him so he could be saved. All of God's elect overcome and persevere in holiness.

 

[bekkilyn]

Christ died only for those God intended to save. Most perish.

I very vehemently disagree on practically all levels.

However, I am in agreement with the following quote by John Wesley:

“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever ‘receive the grace of God in vain’; ‘bury his talents’; ‘neglect such great salvation’; trifle away ‘a day of grace’; ‘look back’ after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can ‘grieve the Spirit’ till He is ‘quenched,’ and strives no more, nor ‘deny the Lord that bought them’; nor ‘bring upon themselves swift destruction.’ Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found (John 17:12); that if one falls, he never stood (Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6); if one was ever ‘cast forth,’ he was never in, and ‘if one ever withered,’ he was never green (John 15:1-6); and that ‘if any man draws back,’ it proves that he never had anything to draw back from (Heb. 10:38,39); that if one ever ‘falls away into spiritual darkness,’ he was never enlightened (Heb 6:4-6); that if you ‘again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,’ it shows that you never escaped (2 Pet 2:20); that if you ‘put salvation away’ you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!” ~ John Wesley (Emphasis mine)​

 

[BNR32FAN]

And it's also not hard to see that PAUL KNEW that things were going to "fall apart" in the near future, and that serious HEresies, and pagan corruption would creep into the "Visible Church" (which was already happening - Paul wasn't sure the Galatians were even a "Christian Church" any more). By Luther's time the Catholics were pretty much DEVOID of any Spiritual truth at all, and had even trashed Salvation by FAITH (Eph 2:8,9) in favor of their "Works salvation heresy".

Your confusing the Roman Catholic Church with the Orthodox Catholic Church. The Roman Church was excommunicated in 1054AD. This is the common misconception that leads most people away from the apostolic teaching. It’s most unfortunate that because of the Roman church that people often reject anything remotely connected to the Catholic Church. The apostolic Church of God adopted the name Catholic some time between 107AD and 180AD. As far adopting or integrating paganism that’s only a false accusation with absolutely no evidence to support it even in the Roman Church that never actually took place. Both the Orthodox and Roman churches have always condemned paganism and strictly forbidden the worship of any other god other than the One and only God of Israel.

 

[BNR32FAN]

no thanks

and there you have folks mere pride and arrogance causing the rejection of the apostolic teachings. It wasn’t hard to prove my point after presenting the evidence.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

and there you have folks mere pride and arrogance causing the rejection of the apostolic teachings. It wasn’t hard to prove my point after presenting the evidence.

I love the teaching of the Apostles and study them daily. I'm not under the yoke of a man-made church denomination/organization. That is the leaven of the Pharisees we see Jesus rebuking in Matthew 23.

hope this helps !!!

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Corinthian brother involved in incest became repentant after Paul ordered Satan to kill him so he could be saved. All of God's elect overcome and persevere in holiness.

It is not said in the scriptures that he did repent or that he was saved. That’s quite an assumption your making. If he did repent then surely he was not cast into fire to be burned. Jesus said that anyone who does not abide in Him will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. So if this man did repent and he was not cast into the fire to be burned then he would’ve had to abide in Christ after his repentance, right? So what about those whom Jesus said will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned? He did say that this will happen. So what about these people? Did they not lose their salvation?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I love the teaching of the Apostles and study them daily. I'm not under the yoke of a man-made church denomination/organization. That is the leaven of the Pharisees we see Jesus rebuking in Matthew 23.

hope this helps !!!

The leavened of the pharisees is their prideful boasting. Are you not familiar with the term “puffed up”? And the Church of God was not made by man. You should know this.


“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:18‬ ‭NASB

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

The leavened of the pharisees is their prideful boasting. Are you not familiar with the term “puffed up”? And the Church of God was not made by man. You should know this.


“I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:18‬ ‭NASB

and the EO is not Peter nor its succession.

 

[RickReads]

and the EO is not Peter nor its succession.

The correct understanding of the verse is that Jesus is the rock upon which the church is built. It`s not built on Peter

 

[RickReads]

Being reconciled isn't being saved. But I see that you think so.

Reconciled does in fact indicate salvation. I think you make your own interpretations of scripture because few if any would agree with this assertion.

 

[BNR32FAN]

and the EO is not Peter nor its succession.

And Martin Luther & John Calvin are? What’s your point? I’ve already proven that the disciples of the apostles refuted reformed theology. Are you going to say that all of Christianity failed right after the apostles and the world was left completely void of the word of God until Martin Luther and John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later? What was the point of establishing a church then? Did Christ’s plan fail in the first century of His church?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

And Martin Luther & John Calvin are? What’s your point? I’ve already proven that the disciples of the apostles refuted reformed theology. Are you going to say that all of Christianity failed right after the apostles and the world was left completely void of the word of God until Martin Luther and John Calvin finally came along 1500 years later? What was the point of establishing a church then? Did Christ’s plan fail in the first century of His church?

never said they were as they are just men not Apostles.