Assurance of Salvation

[RomansFiveEight]

I suggested the same about a year ago. I was reminded by an "influential member of the church" that the light bill doesn't pay itself. The trap of church leaders wanting wallets to fill the pews is not a new problem, nor is it one that will go away until Christ returns.

Yes. And with perhaps only a few exception, the issue of money transcends denominations, religions, ages, races, etc. All of our churches have someone who is more worried about the coffers than the souls.

And it never goes away. The larger of my two churches is VERY healthy financially, and could operate for years without receiving another dime. (Seriously. With our 2015 budget as a guide we have enough saved to operate for 5 years without a single penny of income, and we could slash tens of thousands very quickly if we needed to, though that would mean cutting into missions and fruitful programs) But it still worries about money.

 

[Anto9us]

ASSURANCE?

or APPORTIONMENTS?

when the coin in the coffer rings
the soul from Purgatory springs

and we are back before Martin Luther while thinking we are enlightened Protestants

at the Methodist Church I was raised in -- there was a WOODEN SIGN up at the front --adjusted every Sunday - with sliding wooden BLOCK LETTERS to convey

ATTENDANCE IN CHURCH LAST SUNDAY
ATTENDANCE IN SUNDAY SCHOOL LAST SUNDAY
ATTENDANCE IN CHURCH THIS SUNDAY
ATTENDANCE IN SUNDAY SCHOOL THIS SUNDAY
DOLLARS IN OFFERING LAST SUNDAY
DOLLARS IN OFFERING THIS SUNDAY

the little wooden sign was scrupulously updated

nothing was mentioned about "who accepted Christ"
There was never an invitation to "come accept Christ as Saviour" -
there was an invitation every sunday as to who wanted to JOIN THIS CHURCH

I repeat -- the "ALTAR CALL" was specifically to BECOME A MEMBER OF THIS CHURCH

not to

"be converted to Christ"

(and now, let us stand and sing)


BLESSED APPORTIONMENTS - JESUS IS OURS
OH, WHAT A FORETASTE OF FINANCIAL POWERS
bless our charge conference - LET'S FILL OUR PEWS
LETS MAKE THE BUDGET - LETS PAY OUR DUES

THIS IS MY STORY - THIS IS MY SONG
PRAISING THE DOLLAR - ALL THE DAY LONG
THIS IS MY STORY - THIS IS MY SONG
PRAISING THE DOLLAR - ALL THE DAY LONG

Romans, I told you in a pM of me being the lone Methodist -- and even lone non-Baptist -- in a huge Greek class at Baylor University

Arminianism/Calvinism was not even an issue - nobody said a word about that stuff

My sole sin as a Methodist was belonging to a denomination that baptized infants, sprinkled rather than immersed, and PUT NO EMPHASIS WHATSOEVER IN TRYING TO CONFRONT A PERSON WITH MAKING A PERSONAL COMMITTMENT TO CHRIST AS SAVIOR

and sadly, on that last point -- the Baptists had a legitimate beef

once, in Greek class, water was suddenly sprinkled onto me from behind -- I turned, shocked, to see the main Baptist ringleader and others grinning like coyotes -- and from then on joined the Baptist in-crowd for coffee at the student union building before Greek class every time

about a personal commitment to Christ - I must admit some of their complaints with Methodism were legitimate

modern Methodism - even in the 70's - was a long way from Methodist Camp meetings and the "conviction bench" or whatever they called it

 

[GraceSeeker]

Where I church struggles is with being as supportive of the Conference as they could be. Sioux City is a long way from Des Moines. People here are closer to Omaha and Sioux Falls, SD than they are Des Moines. They often feel isolated from Des Moines in this part of the state.

So I can push a missions offering any time. UMCOR giving is always good. Any local mission project will see money pour in. But when it is conference giving they aren't as enthusiastic because they don't understand connectionalism as well as they should.

I wonder how they would feel if Sarah Palin had sent Alaska's federal income tax dollars to Russia?

Miami is closer to Havana than D.C. and there are a lot of family connections, wonder what sort of connectionalism those folks feel to Sioux City?

 

[RomansFiveEight]

You aren't wrong. Though Methodists don't view conversion like the Baptists do (Pray a prayer and never see them again). But, you're absolutely right. If there's a criticism of Methodism as a culture, it's that we like our churches and our pews are are nary interested in evangelizing to the folks in our world.

I wonder how they would feel if Sarah Palin had sent Alaska's federal income tax dollars to Russia?

Miami is closer to Havana than D.C. and there are a lot of family connections, wonder what sort of connectionalism those folks feel to Sioux City?

Now you've gone to meddlin

Especially in todays world, geography seems so irrelevant. And yet it is. We're in the process of moving districts and folks in my church are upset (well, one or two are. Most don't care). Namely because- they are worried that district meetings and events will be farther away. They had been either here at this church, or the one 20 minutes away, or at the most a church 40 minutes away. Now, we're going to be in the same district as churches in St. Louis, which is an hour away. And they fear (though I do not think the fears are warranted) that the people in St. Louis will demand that we come there, rather than they ever come out here. (Although, I will grant them, most St. Louisans I know think driving more than 20 minutes constitutes a road trip. My Emmaus organization always meets in the 'burbs, because they simply will not drive 30 or 40 minutes out here. It's just 'too far', but not too far to ask us to drive.) But I think that's not going to happen with our district stuff.

Now, I wonder if some of the less, er... "inclusive" people in my congregation have put two and two together and realized we're going to be in the same district as Ferguson

 

[circuitrider]

I wonder how they would feel if Sarah Palin had sent Alaska's federal income tax dollars to Russia?

Miami is closer to Havana than D.C. and there are a lot of family connections, wonder what sort of connectionalism those folks feel to Sioux City?

I think it depends on how people work to make a connection.

Iowa has been in a partnership with the United Methodists in Nigeria for over 25 years. We feel very connected to Nigerian Methodists and even sponsor a couple of Nigerian students at Morningside College and Western Iowa Tech.

Culturally though there are quite large differences in practice between northern and southern Methodists and probably United Methodists east to west.

I watched an argument on Facebook between a group of United Methodists from down south on altar calls. Several of the United Methodists, myself included, had never seen an altar call in a Methodist Church, much less argue about how to do it right. Our differences I'm sure make it hard to feel connected.

I've also notice that other than General Conference, we don't get together on a national level to connect. Most of the time each Conference is doing its own thing, most pastors stay in the same conference, and communication between conferences doesn't seem to happen in a way that folks on the local level know much about it.

 

[BryanW92]

I've also notice that other than General Conference, we don't get together on a national level to connect. Most of the time each Conference is doing its own thing, most pastors stay in the same conference, and communication between conferences doesn't seem to happen in a way that folks on the local level know much about it.

I had a pastor in NE Florida who transferred down from Baltimore to suburban, military town. He said that it was like changing denominations.

 

[circuitrider]

I had a pastor in NE Florida who transferred down from Baltimore to suburban, military town. He said that it was like changing denominations.

I could see that Bryan. When I was an American Baptist we had a national meeting every two years that anyone/everyone was invited to. Many pastors, myself included, attended this meeting regularly. There wasn't a lot of business. It was mostly networking and getting to know people from across the nation.

The ABC/USA is much smaller than the UMC. The ABC has about 5,600 congregations while the UMC has almost 35,000 local churches. Big difference.

But since the General Conference draws the delegates but not persons who aren't voting (other people who attend who are closes to the meeting site) there isn't some national meeting that draws United Methodist together for the average pastor or local church.

 

[Anto9us]

I thought Palin DID send Alaska's federal income tax revenue to Russia

am I missin' sumpn?

 

[GraceSeeker]

I am in what I consider a good program sized church. But they all also remember when it was a much larger church 20 or more years ago. They'd like more numbers too. But I've been blessed to not see numbers as our main focus.

Where I church struggles is with being as supportive of the Conference as they could be. Sioux City is a long way from Des Moines. People here are closer to Omaha and Sioux Falls, SD than they are Des Moines. They often feel isolated from Des Moines in this part of the state.

So I can push a missions offering any time. UMCOR giving is always good. Any local mission project will see money pour in. But when it is conference giving they aren't as enthusiastic because they don't understand connectionalism as well as they should.

I wonder how they would feel if Sarah Palin had sent Alaska's federal income tax dollars to Russia?

Miami is closer to Havana than D.C. and there are a lot of family connections, wonder what sort of connectionalism those folks feel to Sioux City?

I think it depends on how people work to make a connection.

Iowa has been in a partnership with the United Methodists in Nigeria for over 25 years. We feel very connected to Nigerian Methodists and even sponsor a couple of Nigerian students at Morningside College and Western Iowa Tech.

Culturally though there are quite large differences in practice between northern and southern Methodists and probably United Methodists east to west.

My point wasn't about culture. It was about how, at least in my experience, those that aren't connectional object to pay apportionments to the annual conference view it as a tax. Plus, they tend to focus on ministries they can see from the back door as being the only ones they care about. But, if the folks in Sarah Palin's Alaska (remember her comment about being able to see Russia?) we to do that with the tax dollars they are supposed to send to Washington, D.C. to support the "ministries" of the federal government like national defense, Social Security, and those interstate highways that connect Sioux Falls with the rest of the country, my guess is that they would quickly object that such behavior wasn't what America was about, that we were a UNITED States, and Alaska was just as obligated to participate in it as a state in the middle of the country (like Iowa). Feeling disconnected by distance doesn't become an excuse for acting disconnected when it is somebody else who is at a distance, only when we are the ones who feel the disconnect. And that's because the disconnect isn't formed by distance or geography as much as it is attitude and taking the initiative to develop relationships and care about what goes on elsewhere.

If we can care about Sioux City, Sioux Falls, Omaha and Nigeria, we can care about Des Moines too. We can, but we have to want to first.