Assisted Suicide

[Whyayeman]

Does imposing unwanted action to save lives morally permissible?

Yes. People make suicide attempts and are rescuscitated every day. I don't think there is any moral issue there.

Assisted suicide is practised in a number of countries. There are laws about it intended to ensure that the person helped to die fully endorses the action. Otherwise the deed would not be assisted suicide but murder.

 

[childeye 2]

What we have in Christ is the choice of being enslaved to Him or being enslaved by sin. But having only a choice of who will be your master is not "free will."

You're saying either way you choose someone is your master. I get that. There's a theological question of where does sin come from? Many people see sin as an action that's preventative, and the reason many people want to hold themselves and others responsible for their choice/decision is so as to not blame God for sin.

 

[trophy33]

The theological question is where did sin come from?

Sin comes from our imperfection. We do not know everything, therefore we make wrong decisions. Also, our bodily impulses are often misplaced and mislead us.

 

[RDKirk]

You're saying either way you choose someone is your master. I get that. There's a theological question of where does sin come from? Many people see sin as an action that's preventative, and the reason many people want to hold themselves and others responsible for their choice/decision is so as to not blame God for sin.

I didn't say it. Scripture clearly says it. Scripture also says:

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. -- Romans 8

 

[chevyontheriver]

Does imposing unwanted action to save lives morally permissible?

An adult pregnant mother in pain presents herself to the ER and is diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy. The doc tells her that unless the child is aborted, both she and the child will die. She tells the doc, “No, my religion forbids abortion.” What does the doc do?​

If she went to a Catholic hospital they would use a principle of double effect, treat the mother for an ectopic pregnancy using surgery to remove the diseased tissue if necessary, but not do a deliberate abortion. If the baby died it would never have been the intent. The intent was only to remove diseased tissue to stop the infection and restore health. The doctor would never say 'you need an abortion', and would never do an abortion. The doctor would work to treat the infection. The baby might die as a result, but the goal was never to just kill the baby.

If she went to some hospital that was not a Catholic hospital who knows what the doctor would say. She would be right to refuse an abortion, refusing to willfully kill an innocent human being. Better to let nature take it's course. But better to have been treated with some moral and technical consistency. Her family would be right to sue the pants off the hospital and doctor for malpractice, for putting her in such a moral quandry when it was not necessary or right to do so. Catholic moral theology has had this figured out for at least a hundred years. It shouldn't even be a controversy. It should be rightly explained and she should reluctantly accept the proper treatment. Not an abortion, but proper infection control where the baby is a regrettable casualty.

 

[childeye 2]

Sin comes from our imperfection. We do not know everything, therefore we make wrong decisions. Also, our bodily impulses are often misplaced and mislead us.

What about the devil, 1 John 3:8 ? What about Pride? What about cynicism? Do you think there is a spiritual entity in the world that actively deceives people?

 

[RDKirk]

What about the devil, 1 John 3:8 ? What about Pride? What about cynicism? Do you think there is a spiritual entity in the world that actively deceives people?

The devil merely encourages: "Obey your thirst!"

 

[trophy33]

What about the devil, 1 John 3:8 ? What about Pride? What about cynicism? Do you think there is a spiritual entity in the world that actively deceives people?

I think that the devil serves frequently just as a personification of our wrong inclinations and temptations.

Regarding pride and cynicism, both originate in a wrong judgement of a situation, so again, in the inherent imperfection of every creature (creation is limited, not omniscient).

 

[partinobodycular]

(creation is limited, not omniscient)

From where I stand 'creation' certainly seems to be omniscient. It decides what exists and what doesn't... what lives and what dies... and it has never, ever made a mistake. That sure looks like omniscience to me.

 

[trophy33]

From where I stand 'creation' certainly seems to be omniscient. It decides what exists and what doesn't... what lives and what dies... and it has never, ever made a mistake. That sure looks like omniscience to me.

I do not understand what you mean.

Sin is possible only in conscious creation that is able to choose. The Universe, a stone or gravity are neither omniscient nor able to sin.

 

[partinobodycular]

I do not understand what you mean.

Then I'll try to explain.

Sin is possible only in conscious creation that is able to choose.

I agree entirely... creation is incapable of sin. Seemingly, it simply does that which is in its nature to do... just as your God does. But just out of curiosity, how do you know that creation isn't conscious?

The Universe, a stone or gravity are neither omniscient nor able to sin.

We seemingly agree that like your God, creation is incapable of sinning.

As for omniscience and omnipotence, what has your God ever done that's superior to what creation has done?

Just name one thing...

Your claim was that creation is limited, I would counter that creation is seemingly no more limited than your God is.

 

[trophy33]

I agree entirely... creation is incapable of sin.

Only conscious creation that is capable of choosing is capable of sin - humans, for example. Or any other beings with similar agency.

But just out of curiosity, how do you know that creation isn't conscious?

Some creation is conscious, like humans, animals, higher dimension beings (angels). Some is not (like stones, wind or stars). Things do not have mechanism for thought processing and choosing.

We seemingly agree that like your God, creation is incapable of sinning.

Only conscious creation that is capable of choosing is capable of sin - humans, for example. Or any other beings with similar agency.

God is not capable of sinning because His perfections make it impossible for God to "miss".

As for omniscience and omnipotence, what has your God ever done that's superior to what creation has done?
Just name one thing...

Creating the creation. Preserving the creation. Ruling the creation for the best possible outcomes.

Your claim was that creation is limited, I would counter that creation is seemingly no more limited than your God is.

Wrong. Creation exists in God, its has its laws and boundaries, limits. God, on the other hand, is "apeiron".

 

[childeye 2]

Sin is possible only in conscious creation that is able to choose.

I think that's an accurate sentiment, but isn't sin a disability rather than an ability? To a theist God is a precept we reason upon and the meaning of the term is axiomatic. Subsequently, the Truth precedes a lie in existence and the only way a choice to sin would exist is in the event of being presented with a lie. Wherefore we see these scriptures:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jeremiah 16:19-20
19 O Lord, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

20 Shall a man make gods unto himself, and they are no gods?

 

[partinobodycular]

Only conscious creation that is capable of choosing is capable of sin - humans, for example. Or any other beings with similar agency.

So as I said, creation is incapable of sinning. Neither God nor creation are capable of choosing, so in that sense at least, we agree, they're equal. They're incapable of sinning.

Some creation is conscious, like humans, animals, higher dimension beings (angels). Some is not (like stones, wind or stars). Things do not have mechanism for thought processing and choosing.

I'll ask again, how do you know that creation isn't conscious?

This time I'll answer it for you: You don't.

God is not capable of sinning because His perfections make it impossible for God to "miss".

Ditto for creation, it is what it is, and in no sense could it be 'better' than it is. (If it could, your God would've created it so... is this not true?) Hence, whether it is perfect of its own accord, or it was created so by God, creation is as perfect as it could possibly be.

Creating the creation. Preserving the creation. Ruling the creation for the best possible outcomes.

Ah, but now we get to the crux of the dilemma, how do you know that the creation was actually 'created'? Were you there? What evidence do you have? Perhaps it's not a creation at all. Since it bears all the hallmarks, and attributes of your God, perhaps the 'creation' and the 'creator' are one and the same thing, and 'creation' is merely your limited human perspective of the "Creator". It's God the Creator, seen through human eyes.

Creation exists in God, its has its laws and boundaries, limits. God, on the other hand, is "apeiron".

Out of curiosity again, if creation exists in God, and presuming that God exists in creation, then what would you say differentiates the two? Isn't the creation simply a manifestation of the creator? The absolute best of which its capable? If so, then the creation is no better or worse than its creator. At worst, it's its equal, and at best, it's the Creator Himself.

I could go on. I love philosophy, but alas we're way off topic. Perhaps another place and another time.

 

[trophy33]

I think that's an accurate sentiment, but isn't sin a disability rather than an ability?

Yes, its more a disability, because it originates from the lack of perfect knowledge, from the lack of perfect control... simply from our imperfections, limitations, as we are just created beings.

 

[trophy33]

So as I said, creation is incapable of sinning. Neither God nor creation are capable of choosing, so in that sense at least, we agree, they're equal. They're incapable of sinning.

Only conscious creation that is capable of choosing is capable of sin - humans, for example. Or any other beings with similar agency.

I'll ask again, how do you know that creation isn't conscious? This time I'll answer it for you: You don't.

Some creation is conscious, like humans, and some creation is not conscious, like stones, wind or stars. They are not conscious because they do not have any mechanism for thoughts processing. And they cannot sin because they do not choose between options.

Ah, but now we get to the crux of the dilemma, how do you know that the creation was actually 'created'? Were you there? What evidence do you have?

The Big bang.

Out of curiosity again, if creation exists in God, and presuming that God exists in creation, then what would you say differentiates the two? Isn't the creation simply a manifestation of the creator? The absolute best of which its capable? If so, then the creation is no better or worse than its creator. At worst, it's its equal, and at best, it's the Creator Himself.

My thoughts, ideas, dreams or for example this post are not me. Those are products that exist because of me, but I do not exist in them.

Similarly, we are in God, but God is not in us in the existential sense.

 

[Semper-Fi]

​

1 Corinthians 6:19 (KJV)
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Corinthians 6:20 (KJV)​

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body,
and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Corinthians 7:23 (KJV)​

Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

x

Number of suicides in the US reaches record level: CDC​

MSN

 

[o_mlly]

Nah.

Difficult to defeat such an elegant rebuttal argument as "Nah" but here you have it.

Free will is an innate unchanging characteristic of human beings. Circumstances, eg., coercion, seduction, ignorance, disordered emptions, mental sicknesses etc. do not disable the properties that make us human.

He made us free in order to do what we ought. One may accept His grace and virtuously do what one ought. One may reject His grace and viciously do what one should not. In order to be saints, we must also be free to be sinners, ie., free to do evil. (Doing evil and the culpability assigned for doing that evil are different things.)

 

[o_mlly]

Yes. People make suicide attempts and are rescuscitated every day. I don't think there is any moral issue there.

Assisted suicide is practised in a number of countries. There are laws about it intended to ensure that the person helped to die fully endorses the action. Otherwise the deed would not be assisted suicide but murder.

The examples provided involved a third-party deciding life and death issues.

 

[o_mlly]

If she went to a Catholic hospital they would use a principle of double effect, treat the mother for an ectopic pregnancy using surgery to remove the diseased tissue if necessary, but not do a deliberate abortion ...

Assume the ectopic pregnancy is hepatic. There is no parallel to salpingectomy when the child embeds in its mother's liver.