Assisted Suicide...

[stan1980]

well back a ways i posted a name. this one:

Marie Schindler Schiavo. Did you check it out? And if so, just how deep did you dig?

I give up, I'm not a mind reader, either get whatever it is off your chest or don't as I can't be bothered with your cryptic posts.

 

[brinny]

well now, that's my point exactly...

not always so light n' breezy....

You bought up a case that is very different. Yes, there are different situations, but we were speaking of a specific case. Some cases are more complicated than others, so lets focus on the ones that aren't first.

Personally, what I want is a change in the law that allows any adult of sound mental ability who is fully aware of the specifics of their condition, if they coose to be allowed access to life terminating drugs at a time of their choosing and proffessional help to administer them if the patient is unable to do it themselves.

I do not want an end to pallative care, I do not want the elderly or sick to made to feel a burden and I do not want termiation in every case. I just want people who are in the position to make that decision to have the right to have thier wishes carried out.

I'm not sure how I feel about living wills. I think the decision should have nothing to do with the family, and can certainly understand and respect someone's wishes when they say they do not want to live in that sort of state, I still feel it's a bit less cut and dry than the situations where the patient can say firmly "I am not happy with my quality of life and my prospects, I would like to die now."

nice to be able to control that and thus have your will carried out....good for you.

yet, it's not just about you nor me...it's about those who cannot speak for themselves.

 

[stan1980]

You bought up a case that is very different. Yes, there are different situations, but we were speaking of a specific case. Some cases are more complicated than others, so lets focus on the ones that aren't first.

Personally, what I want is a change in the law that allows any adult of sound mental ability who is fully aware of the specifics of their condition, if they coose to be allowed access to life terminating drugs at a time of their choosing and proffessional help to administer them if the patient is unable to do it themselves.

I do not want an end to pallative care, I do not want the elderly or sick to made to feel a burden and I do not want termiation in every case. I just want people who are in the position to make that decision to have the right to have thier wishes carried out.

I'm not sure how I feel about living wills. I think the decision should have nothing to do with the family, and can certainly understand and respect someone's wishes when they say they do not want to live in that sort of state, I still feel it's a bit less cut and dry than the situations where the patient can say firmly "I am not happy with my quality of life and my prospects, I would like to die now."

Good post, but surely a living will is better than the alternative, which is guessing?

 

[Psudopod]

Good post, but surely a living will is better than the alternative, which is guessing?

Yes of course. It's more the thought that people with sever disablities can come to terms with them, and people do wake from vegetive states. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of the doctor making his prognosis and then carrying out the will when the person may have come to accept their position given time, or their condition may change to a point where it is acceptable to them.

Of course, if someone's will is carried, they're not going to be in a position to regret it. I just don't think I'd want to be in that position, which is unlikely as I am not a doctor. I'm not unsympathetic, as I think that I would probably carry a note like that too if I thought it would have any effect. However, I do start to wonder every time I read about discoveries in this field.

I think it bothers me more though that even if you have made your wishes clear your family can still over ride them at the moment. The same with organ donation. I don't think I'd have any problem with my family preventing my organs going to someone else if I died tomorrow, but I know there are people out there who do. The idea of my organs going in the ground when they could have helped someone is aborrant to me and I've made this very clear to everyone close to me (hopefully!).

 

[stan1980]

Yes of course. It's more the thought that people with sever disablities can come to terms with them, and people do wake from vegetive states. I'm just uncomfortable with the idea of the doctor making his prognosis and then carrying out the will when the person may have come to accept their position given time, or their condition may change to a point where it is acceptable to them.

Yes, these are all things an individual will have to consider before making a living will. From a personal pov, I'd rather be able to make the will, and live (or die as the case maybe) with the risk that I might regret the fact my doctors are about to kill me, but that is a risk I'm willing to take because right now I can't see anything much worse than having to live my days being a prisoner in my own body.

 

[brinny]

Originally Posted by brinny
well back a ways i posted a name. this one:

Marie Schindler Schiavo. Did you check it out? And if so, just how deep did you dig?

I give up, I'm not a mind reader, either get whatever it is off your chest or don't as I can't be bothered with your cryptic posts.

Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, it was believed, was paralyzed from an injury from an assault on her by her husband Michael. In her helpless state several things happened....a girlfriend became part of his life..they had children...yet, Michael remained the 'decider', legally of her fate. He had the power of attorney it seems to decide who could see her, who could not, and he was also the beneficiary of her insurance police. During the time that all the hoopla was taking place in the news, he was extricating her family from her...finally getting a court order to remove her feeding tube. Then another court order to prohibit anyone from giving her water (although she could swallow water on her own) Thus the days continued...Terri (as she was called) slowly dehydrated and died a slow, agonizing death of suffering not just physically, but emotionally. She was a Catholic. He prohibited the priest from coming into her room and giving her communion. He during this time prohibited her family or anyone else from coming around her, legally. So it was just him in that room with her as she died, and just nursing staff in and out of the room. It was clear to her friends and loved ones that she had responses to them andmade movements with her arms as if dancing when a friend was in the room singing....

Now, if it is a fact that he abused her...what we have here is the horror of her last moments in the presence of her abuser. In agonizing slow motion..till her very last breath.

Terri:

"Where there is life, there is hope!" ~Terri Schindler-Schiavo

Michael denied her family seeing her after she died, and to this day they do not know whee she is buried.

 

[stan1980]

Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, it was believed, was paralyzed from an injury from an assault on her by her husband Michael. In her helpless state several things happened....a girlfriend became part of his life..they had children...yet, Michael remained the 'decider', legally of her fate. He had the power of attorney it seems to decide who could see her, who could not, and he was also the beneficiary of her insurance police. During the time that all the hoopla was taking place in the news, he was extricating her family from her...finally getting a court order to remove her feeding tube. Then another court order to prohibit anyone from giving her water (although she could swallow water on her own) Thus the days continued...Terri (as she was called) slowly dehydrated and died a slow, agonizing death of suffering not just physically, but emotionally. She was a Catholic. He prohibited the priest from coming into her room and giving her communion. He during this time prohibited her family or anyone else from coming around her, legally. So it was just him in that room with her as she died, and just nursing staff in and out of the room. It was clear to her friends and loved ones that she had responses to them andmade movements with her arms as if dancing when a friend was in the room singing....

Now, if it is a fact that he abused her...what we have here is the horror of her last moments in the presence of her abuser. In agonizing slow motion..till her very last breath.

Terri:

"Where there is life, there is hope!" ~Terri Schindler-Schiavo

Michael denied her family seeing her after she died, and to this day they do not know whee she is buried.

Sounds terrible (if it really did happen like that), but we were talking about assisted suicides where the person voluntarily decides for themselves whether they want to die or not. This case is slightly different.

All I'm saying is we should have the option of making a living will, where our requests after the event of a horrific accident or a terminal illness are met, or in the case of the paralysed rugby player in the OP, it should be his decision whether he wishes to die in dignity or live trapped in his own body.

 

[brinny]

stan, your opening post, is all well and good. However it would not require extraordinary 'slickness' to twist it and abuse it for someone who could not speak for theirself. Michael insisted Terri wanted to die the way she did. Anyone that knew her knew otherwise. Throughout her life her motto was the quote i posted.

 

[stan1980]

Incidentally, Brinny, I think the case you bring up is exactly one of the reasons why we need to have procedures in place so at least we have a good idea of what the person would want in the event that they can't decide for themselves.

 

[Psudopod]

Yes, these are all things an individual will have to consider before making a living will. From a personal pov, I'd rather be able to make the will, and live (or die as the case maybe) with the risk that I might regret the fact my doctors are about to kill me, but that is a risk I'm willing to take because right now I can't see anything much worse than having to live my days being a prisoner in my own body.

I can't disagree with that.

 

[stan1980]

stan, your opening post, is all well and good. However it would not require extraordinary 'slickness' to twist it and abuse it for someone who could not speak for theirself. Michael insisted Terri wanted to die the way she did. Anyone that knew her knew otherwise. Throughout her life her motto was the quote i posted.

That's why a living will would be handy, so the court knows her wishes, preferably one where the family can't over rule.

 

[brinny]

Incidentally, Brinny, I think the case you bring up is exactly one of the reasons why we need to have procedures in place so at least we have a good idea of what the person would want in the event that they can't decide for themselves.

you may have a point stan. Yet even if one had been written by Terri herself, it would've most likely gotten over ridden by Michael. How many young wives do you know who write out what they want to happen to them if the unforseen happpens?

 

[Psudopod]

stan, your opening post, is all well and good. However it would not require extraordinary 'slickness' to twist it and abuse it for someone who could not speak for theirself. Michael insisted Terri wanted to die the way she did. Anyone that knew her knew otherwise. Throughout her life her motto was the quote i posted.

If living wills were in place, then there wouldn't be nearly as much guessing as there was in that case.

Having gone though some literature on this case, I think you stated something that you cannot know for certain. There was no evidence of abuse, and Terri was extremely brain damaged. She had lost half her brain mass. Her husband first went to the courts to try and determine what terri would have wanted in this sitution and the concensus was that she would not have wanted to live like this. There was no evidence that she could swallow water unaided and it is considered that death by dehydration is not an agonising death when accounpanied with pain control and care. She was given the last rites and her family was told where she was buried.

Now there is clearly a lot of animosity in the case between Terri's husband and her family, it may be that we will never know the full details of the case. However the concensus of the courts was Terri was serverly brain damaged and would not have wanted to live in her situation. They had access to as much information as we have (if not more) and this was the decision they made.

None of this is an argument against assisted suicide of the example in the op, and as Stan says, a living will would at least show us the patients wishes before they became ill/injured.

 

[stan1980]

you may have a point stan. Yet even if one had been written by Terri herself, it would've most likely gotten over ridden by Michael. How many young wives do you know who write out what they want to happen to them if the unforseen happpens?

Not many, which is why I think it would be a good idea if there was some legislation in this area, so the public can be aware of their options so they can make a choice now before it's too late for them. It might help avoid messy court cases too, and even if a case does get to court, I'm sure a living will help a judge come to a better conclusion than they did in the case you brought up.

 

[brinny]

stan, your opening post, is all well and good. However it would not require extraordinary 'slickness' to twist it and abuse it for someone who could not speak for theirself. Michael insisted Terri wanted to die the way she did. Anyone that knew her knew otherwise. Throughout her life her motto was the quote i posted.

If living wills were in place, then there wouldn't be nearly as much guessing as there was in that case.

Having gone though some literature on this case, I think you stated something that you cannot know for certain. There was no evidence of abuse, and Terri was extremely brain damaged. She had lost half her brain mass. Her husband first went to the courts to try and determine what terri would have wanted in this sitution and the concensus was that she would not have wanted to live like this. There was no evidence that she could swallow water unaided and it is considered that death by dehydration is not an agonising death when accounpanied with pain control and care. She was given the last rites and her family was told where she was buried.

Now there is clearly a lot of animosity in the case between Terri's husband and her family, it may be that we will never know the full details of the case. However the concensus of the courts was Terri was serverly brain damaged and would not have wanted to live in her situation. They had access to as much information as we have (if not more) and this was the decision they made.

None of this is an argument against assisted suicide of the example in the op, and as Stan says, a living will would at least show us the patients wishes before they became ill/injured.

i would suggest you do more research.

 

[Psudopod]

i would suggest you do more research.

Can you give me an unbiased source? I started with the wikipedia article and then looked at the citations. None of them showed any evidence of abuse, or that the diagnosis was incorrect. It doesn't mean this wasn't the case, but just that's what the evidence shows. And that's the only thing we can go with in this situation.

From an outside point of view, some of her husband behaviour does seem unpleasnt and unfair towards her family, but maybe he knew his wife's wishes and was doing his best to impliment them. I can't comment on things like this, I don't know any of the people involved. I only know what evidence shows, which as far as I can is what I said above.

 

[brinny]

i would suggest you do more research.

Can you give me an unbiased source? I started with the wikipedia article and then looked at the citations. None of them showed any evidence of abuse, or that the diagnosis was incorrect. It doesn't mean this wasn't the case, but just that's what the evidence shows. And that's the only thing we can go with in this situation.

From an outside point of view, some of her husband behaviour does seem unpleasnt and unfair towards her family, but maybe he knew his wife's wishes and was doing his best to impliment them. I can't comment on things like this, I don't know any of the people involved. I only know what evidence shows, which as far as I can is what I said above.

did you read my post? did you read the circumstances surrounding her right before her death? Do you get that he was in line to benefit financially from her death? Do you get that he had a girlfriend, with children, and that it was odd that guardianship was not removed from him and given to her family? Do you get that she was aware of her slow, excruciating dying of thirst..over a prolonged period of time? Do you get that she was not allowed to have her family or anyone else visit her during her dying? Does it bother you that her estranged husband, who was no longer a part of her life, had such power? In your research, did you find out where she was buried? Did her family ever find out where her remains are? Does this cause you even a glimmer of discomfort that maybe, just maybe, something was terribly wrong, and that a legal precedent was set by Michael's attorney in this case? A precedent that can make it easier to twist and skew a similar situation. Do you know why there are those who are disabled in various ways that this terrifies? Do you understand why?

In this case, under the circumstances, he should have never been allowed to remain Terri's power of attorney. The fact that he was allowed, legally, is alarming.

 

[fated]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hereford/worcs/7675745.stm

Surely no one has anything against this kind of assisted suicide, do they?

Personally, I can imagine this is probably the way I would like to go, if I become severely debilitated, so it's nice to know I'll be able go to Switzerland to make that happen (as long as someone helps me to get there!).

Bit silly though, that I would have to travel all that way.

It is much simpler if physicians assume that a desire to kill oneself is due to mental illness, rather than enabling people to kill themselves just because they are ill or old. Many of those who are euthanized in places were it is legal are depressed. Physicians are compensated for euthanizing people, and I would bet the profit margin is a lot better than caring for them in a nursing home. Also, some insurance offers euthanasia but not treatment, which is decidedly immoral. Also, there can enter into society a belief that offing yourself is better, because of health care rationing, than living out ones existence, because of the expense involved. Needless to say, I don't want health care workers assuming that the proper course of action is to kill someone. I don't want killing other people to be legal.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Theresa Marie Schindler Schiavo, it was believed, was paralyzed from an injury from an assault on her by her husband Michael. In her helpless state several things happened....a girlfriend became part of his life..they had children...yet, Michael remained the 'decider', legally of her fate. He had the power of attorney it seems to decide who could see her, who could not, and he was also the beneficiary of her insurance police. During the time that all the hoopla was taking place in the news, he was extricating her family from her...finally getting a court order to remove her feeding tube. Then another court order to prohibit anyone from giving her water (although she could swallow water on her own) Thus the days continued...Terri (as she was called) slowly dehydrated and died a slow, agonizing death of suffering not just physically, but emotionally. She was a Catholic. He prohibited the priest from coming into her room and giving her communion. He during this time prohibited her family or anyone else from coming around her, legally. So it was just him in that room with her as she died, and just nursing staff in and out of the room. It was clear to her friends and loved ones that she had responses to them andmade movements with her arms as if dancing when a friend was in the room singing....

Now, if it is a fact that he abused her...what we have here is the horror of her last moments in the presence of her abuser. In agonizing slow motion..till her very last breath.

Terri:

"Where there is life, there is hope!" ~Terri Schindler-Schiavo

Michael denied her family seeing her after she died, and to this day they do not know whee she is buried.

How can anyone in a persistent vegetative state experience physical, let alone emotional, suffering?

Secondly, the idea that her husband caused her medical problems is part of the lies the Right seemingly have no shame in spreading about someone's personal life.

Moreover, it's not the case that the family weren't allowed to see her, just that they couldn't at the same time as her husband. Though I believe his actions with regards to Terri's cremation and her family were despicable, they do now know where her ashes are buried.

 

[fated]

How can anyone in a persistent vegetative state experience physical, let alone emotional, suffering?

Secondly, the idea that her husband caused her medical problems is part of the lies the Right seemingly have no shame in spreading about someone's personal life.

Moreover, it's not the case that the family weren't allowed to see her, just that they couldn't at the same time as her husband. Though I believe his actions with regards to Terri's cremation and her family were despicable, they do now know where her ashes are buried.

Pulling the plug on her wasn't immoral in and of itself. GI tubes can easily be considered extraordinary care. The problem was the the husband illogically opposed the family, and thus, killed their the parents daughter based on a suspicious argument. He could have just divorced her and gotten married. BUT, he was eager to get money, I think, and so he had her killed. And that, is why I say he killed her, and that, is why his actions were immoral.