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Assembly of God and Tongues

StanJ

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The online version I read which Swordsman seems to be citing, was dated 1967 and I was going to make a comment about it's seeing as I was saved in 1971. There's been a lot of change in regards to speaking in tongues since that time so I have to guess that swordsman is of that generation. I have had over 45 years to hone my apologetics in this regard so there's not much that I haven't encountered or I'm not able to address in this matter. My only shortcoming is the lack of patience for very obvious issues that are dealt with in Scripture.
 
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swordsman1

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You confirm my point about Isaiah 28:11 as the issues there was the language that sounded like stammering and gibberish.

Which is not echoed in Paul's quotation of Isaiah's prophecy in 1 Cor 14. In applying it to tongues, he emphasizes that it was foreign languages spoken, not what it sounded like.
 
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StanJ

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It was as you framed it, and the author himself states; "Some reported cases of sacerdotal language cannot be regarded as a legitimate form of glossolalia for the obsolete words are understood by the speaker who may have learned them from elder colleagues." Which leads to an obvious conclusion that his whole perspective is rather contradictory, and appears to vacillate from one side to the other.
Well now we are back to your implausible theory which virtually all respected theologians, including pentecostal and charistmatic, reject.
Which you keep claiming but have thus far been unable to corroborate. Maybe you should try refuting me out of your own knowledge instead of relying on so-called respected theologians. It would appear to me that my knowledge is not only head knowledge but experiential knowledge the latter of which you apparently have none of. There's a lot to be said for having a faith label here on CF, but you choose to use the generic one which doesn't really give a good clear indication of the perspective of your beliefs. You seem to rely more on the men that support your ideology than scripture that doesn't?
No they weren't faking it or making it up. I believe they simply discovered the technique of speaking glossolalia. I will find the paper and post a link to it.
Like I said, even if they were able to do it it wouldn't be totally surprising as the scriptures tell us that the devil does appear as an angel of Light. The fact that they would use less spiritually discerning people for their test subjects doesn't really say much for the authenticity of the test.
After all I have run into several less spiritually discerning people on this thread, so you know what the scriptures say yet still refuse to accept it.
I guess we'll have to wait and see if you can come up with this example and the reason you'll use to justify it?
 
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StanJ

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Which is not echoed in Paul's quotation of Isaiah's prophecy in 1 Cor 14. In applying it to tongues, he emphasizes that it was foreign languages spoken, not what it sounded like.
No, the context is order and as such the language they came across as confusing would definitely fall into that category. I have heard many foreign languages in my life and none of them seem confusing to me, although I did not understand most of them. However I do understand some Spanish or Italian when I hear it as well as some Korean, Japanese, and Mandarin / Cantonese. Just not all if it. I'm pretty sure that the people of Jesus's day in that geographical region, would be able to recognize languages from those areas or adjacent areas even though they didn't necessarily understand the words. I'm sure in Jesus's day some recognized Egyptian, even though they might not understand it.
If you refuse to recognize or accept the context of tongues in the New Testament then all the Apologetics in the world won't change your mind as that would be only possible for God to do. He can change the mind of the inculcated if they are willing to listen to him and his word.
However we must first obey everything he tells us to do in the order he tells us to do it to be able to have faith in him for understanding. If we can't believe and accept his written word then how can one expect to be directed by the Holy Spirit to see the truth therein?
 
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StanJ

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Thanks, I'll give it a look.
 
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swordsman1

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It was as you framed it

How do you mean? I simply said "Glossolalia has also been observed in non-Christian religions including:"


I fail to see the logic in that. He specifically excludes those cases of sacerdotal language where the words are known eg speaking Latin in Roman Catholic churches. Nothing contradictory in that.


Maybe you should try refuting me out of your own knowledge instead of relying on so-called respected theologians.

I think that would be rather like trying to reason with somebody who is convinced the Moon is made of cheese, but who rejects all the obvious evidence to the contrary and who doggedly asserts that he is right and everyone else is wrong.

It would appear to me that my knowledge is not only head knowledge but experiential knowledge the latter of which you apparently have none of.

Experience plays no part in determining correct doctrine, which must be based on scripture alone. This is the big problem with charismatic/pentecostal theology. They eisogetically attempt to interpret scripture in light of their personal experiences. Which is a hermeneutical fallacy.
 
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StanJ

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How do you mean? I simply said "Glossolalia has also been observed in non-Christian religions including:"
What I meant was you posted a list as an example of those that practised glossolalia when in fact they were examples of those that used a sacerdotal language. In my view that was being disingenuous.
I fail to see the logic in that. He specifically excludes those cases of sacerdotal language where the words are known eg speaking Latin in Roman Catholic churches. Nothing contradictory in that.
That doesn't mean it isn't logical you just fail to see it. Latin is not a sacerdotal language. Patois and Joual are much closer to sacerdotal, even though they are not. The point remains that have nothing to do with this issue, despite your efforts at deflection.
It certainly does when your experience confirms the doctrine. Where exactly is your experience confirmed in Scripture? My understanding is you haven't had the experience and that has clouded your judgment as to what is properly exegeted from scripture. Your attempts at eisegeting scripture to fit your pre-positional bias is not fallacy, it is true and is hermeneutically unsound.
 
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swordsman1

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No I was not being disingenuous. I posted the examples from that paper that the researcher said was glossolalia. I have no reason to doubt his research. On that list only 3 were sacerdotal, and yet still by definition glossolalia as he says. You seem to be grasping at straws in order to try to disprove me.


No, personal experience plays no part in formulating doctrine. That is bad hermeneutics. Only what it written in scripture can determine doctrine. Only once the doctrine is established can experience be allowed to confirm it. Charismatic/Pentecostal theology puts the cart before the horse, with doctrine formulated in order to accommodate their personal experience. With regard to tongues, the misinterpretations of 1 Cor 13:1 and 1 Cor 14:2 are classic cases in point. Your unsubstantiated theory about miraculous interpretation occurring in Acts 2 is another example. In believing their experience of glossolalia to be NT tongues, their whole interpretation on the passages about tongues is skewed by what they unwarrantedly assume tongues is, not on what the Bible says it is.
 
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StanJ

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I'm not the one posting unproven articles, I was simply dealing with what you had posted and the inconsistencies therein. I already have refuted you, but I'm just trying to get you to see the folly of your ways but that obviously isn't working. Wandering off into the minutiae of everything that you bring up is not my idea of productive or getting to the truth. You started out by advocating that the incident in Acts 2:4 was xenoglossia and not glossolalia. The fact is you have not proven your assertions and it has never been proven that xenoglossia has EVER existed. On the other hand we have clearly seen that glossalalia is and was a reality in the church. That coupled with Mark 16:17, where Jesus said they would speak in new tongues and not they would speak in an foreign/known language, settles the case as far as I am concerned. That this also happened to Paul himself in Acts 9 and to Gentiles in Acts 8 & 10 and to Disciples of Jesus in Acts 19, along with all the instances in 1 Cor 12 & 14, fully qualifies as a Biblical precedent. Faith is required to believe Jesus, receive the Holy Spirit, and speak in tongues, and when one starts with doubt then there is no way forward. The numbers speak for themselves with well over 250 million Pentecostals in the world. The only question that remains is why do people not believe what Jesus said? Remember, Jesus said God is spirit and those that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
 
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swordsman1

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I'm not the one posting unproven articles, I was simply dealing with what you had posted and the inconsistencies therein.

It wasn't an unproven article, it was an academic study by a professor of Anthropology. Unlike some of the evidence you have given us which is nothing more than articles by random nobodies on the internet. If you dispute his findings I suggest you gather your evidence and write you own paper to refute him.

I already have refuted you, but I'm just trying to get you to see the folly of your ways but that obviously isn't working.

So you beleive. It will be up to others to judge who is right.

You started out by advocating that the incident in Acts 2:4 was xenoglossia and not glossolalia. The fact is you have not proven your assertions and it has never been proven that xenoglossia has EVER existed.

Yes I have - conclusively. In addition to the other evidence I gave, the plain reading of Acts 2 is proof enough. And the vast majority of theologians, even those of a Charismatic persuasion such the respected Grudem and Carson, agree with me.

On the other hand we have clearly seen that glossalalia is and was a reality in the church.

In Pentecostal and Charismatic churches maybe, as well as in other religions. But not in the New Testament church, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

That coupled with Mark 16:17, where Jesus said they would speak in new tongues and not they would speak in an foreign/known language, settles the case as far as I am concerned.

The tongues were new to the disciples, not new to the world. The languages spoken at Pentecost were not new to the world.

That this also happened to Paul himself in Acts 9 and to Gentiles in Acts 8 & 10 and to Disciples of Jesus in Acts 19, along with all the instances in 1 Cor 12 & 14, fully qualifies as a Biblical precedent.

Where does Paul speak glossolalia in Acts 9?

There are no gentiles in Acts 8! Nor any mention of tongues, let alone glossolalia!

In Acts 10 the Gentiles spoke in tongues, but it was exactly the same kind of tongues spoken at Pentecost, xenoglossia. Peter says so in Acts 11:15,17.

The disciples in Acts 19 were disciples of John the Baptist, not Jesus. After their conversion, they spoke in tongues but there is no mention of it's nature. It must therefore be presumed to be the same as those already described and not something else.

And where is the evidence for glossolalia in 1 Cor 12-14?

The numbers speak for themselves with well over 250 million Pentecostals in the world.
That means nothing. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, that doesn't make their theology correct.
 
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swordsman1

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That coupled with Mark 16:17, where Jesus said they would speak in new tongues and not they would speak in an foreign/known language, settles the case as far as I am concerned.

I thought I'd check the commentaries to see if any agreed with your interpretation of "new tongues" in Mark 16:17.

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Whole Bible
Shall speak with new tongues - Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2:4-11. It existed, also, in other places. See 1 Corinthians 12:10.

Adam Clarke Commentary
Speak with new tongues - This was most literally fulfilled on the day of pentecost, Acts 2:4-19.

E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes
new = different in character. Greek. kainos, not neos. See notes on Matthew 9:17; Matthew 26:28, Matthew 26:29,

John Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible
they shall speak with new tongues: or languages, not such as were new made, and had never been heard and known before; but foreign languages, such as they had never learned, or were able to speak, or understood before; and this not only did the apostles on the day of pentecost, but even common believers at other times, Acts 2:4 Acts 10:45.

Geneva Study Bible
(e) Strange tongues, ones which they did not know before.

Matthew Henry Commentary
They shall speak with new tongues, which they had never learned, or been acquainted with;

Mayers NT Commentary
And such is the speaking in new languages mentioned in the passage before us, in such languages, that is, as they could not previously speak, which were new and strange to the speakers.

Whedon's Commentary on the Bible
Speak with new tongues — Tongues by them not hitherto possessed.

I couldn't find a single commentary that agreed with your interpretation. I'm afraid it looks like you're on your own with that one as well.
 
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swordsman1

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Here is the paper I was referring to:

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1968/JASA9-68Pattison.html

In it the researcher notes:

Several linguistic studies, including our own, suggest that glossolalists develop their glossolalic speech from ill-formed structure to "Practiced" and "polished' glossolalic speech. Thus the linguistic qualities of the glossolalia depends to some extent on the stage of development of glossolalia.

The following seem to be reasonable conclusions from the linguistic studies. Glossolalia, in at least English-speaking subjects, is composed of the basic speech elements of English. The major difference consisting of lack of organization of the basic phenomes into the syntactical elements necessary for intelligible speech. The para-linguistic elements of speech, pauses, breaths, intonations, etc. are markedly reduced and modified. Thus glossolalic speech tends to resemble the early speech qualities of young children prior to the organization of all the variables associated with adult language. Further, there is a reduction in the distribution of phenomes, i.e. a limited phonemic catalogue is utilized by the glossolalists. The conclusions of the linguists cited is that glossolalia presents the characteristics of partially formed language without the formal characteristics of language.

Indeed, many of the qualities of glossolalic speech are those found in the speech of young children, which George Devereau has outlined. A comparison of his outline of children's speech and glossolalic speech is striking. On this basis, one may suggest that glossolalic speech appears to be a regression to an early mode of speech in which vocalization is used for purposes other than just the communication of rational thought. This hypothesis receives further support from other data to be cited.

Another line of investigation has focused on the replication of glossolalia under experimental rather than religious contexts.

Al Carlson, at the University of California, recorded two types of glossolalia, one type was recorded from glossolalists during spiritual exercises, and the other type was recorded by volunteers who were asked to spontaneously speak in unknown language without having ever heard glossolalia. These speech samples were then rated by glossolalists. The two types of glossolalia were not distinguished from each other. In fact, the "contrived" glossolalia received better ratings as "good glossolalia" than the actual glossolalia.

Werner Cohn, at the University of British Columbia, took naive students to Pentecostal churches to hear glossolalia and then asked the students to speak in glossolalia in the laboratory. They were able to successfully do so. Their recordings were then played to glossolalists who described the glossolalia as beautiful examples.

In sum, the structural linguistic data suggest that glossolalia has specific linguistic structure based on the language tongue of the speaker, that the linguistic organization is limited, and that the capacity to speak in this type of semi-organized language can be replicated under experimental conditions. Thus, glossolalia does not appear to be a "strange language," but rather the aborted formation of familiar language.
 
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StanJ

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Still unproven and unsubstantiated. This guy was just as much a random nobody as the others that I have posted if you don't know who they are, with the exception that the article in question was well over 50 years old and as has already been pointed out to you by another, most of these observations are no longer acceptable.
I'd say the same thing for you, as you're the one that has refuses to say whether or not you have any credentials in this regard whatsoever.
So you beleive. It will be up to others to judge who is right.
No actually it's up to God to judge and it is God who is right along with his word. It is up to us as admonished by Paul to rightly divide the word of Truth.
Yes I have - conclusively. In addition to the other evidence I gave, the plain reading of Acts 2 is proof enough. And the vast majority of theologians, even those of a Charismatic persuasion such the respected Grudem and Carson, agree with me.
In my opinion this is nothing more than denial. I addressed all your misconceptions. The plain reading of Acts to is just that, straightforward just as the Greek is. γλῶσσα (glōssa) = tongues and διάλεκτος (dialektos. = language, καινός (kainos) = new as in unheard of, unusual, new in species, character or mode. Plainly, not another known or existing language.
In Pentecostal and Charismatic churches maybe, as well as in other religions. But not in the New Testament church, for which there is no evidence whatsoever.
Already refuted in post 169.
The tongues were new to the disciples, not new to the world. The languages spoken at Pentecost were not new to the world.
They were indeed new, as the Greek connotes New to be, as I have just shown above.
Where does Paul speak glossolalia in Acts 9?
V18
There are no gentiles in Acts 8! Nor any mention of tongues, let alone glossolalia!
So you think Acts 8 is only dealing with Samaritans? That's quite an assumption. Regardless, v17 & 18 show that. Of course if you don't plainly accept tongues as what they are, then you probably wouldn't be able to see when it happened. Read the beginning of v18 carefully.
In Acts 10 the Gentiles spoke in tongues, but it was exactly the same kind of tongues spoken at Pentecost, xenoglossia. Peter says so in Acts 11:15,17.
Yes Peter confirmed it was the same as Acts 2, which was glossalalia. Your assumption is again wrong.
They were Disciples of Jesus baptized by John. Paul didn't ask them who they believed in he asked them when they believe that they receive the Holy Spirit. Here's a good indication of how you presume and assume instead of presenting facts.
And where is the evidence for glossolalia in 1 Cor 12-14?
Right in the scripture if you have eyes to see but if you are predisposed to not see it then you won't.
That means nothing. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, that doesn't make their theology correct.
Irrelevant, we're talking from a Christian perspective, or hadn't you noticed that? You are a Christian right?
 
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StanJ

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I think I'm beginning to get the picture here. Are you an actual member of this organization of about 1500 so-called scientists?
I would be really interested to know what the majority denominational affiliation is of this group?
This report is nothing more than a sham
 
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StanJ

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This wasn't my interpretation of new tongue it comes straight from Mounce.
You give 8 examples and figure that's a wrap, even though Clarke, Bullinger, Geneva, and Henry don't say what you assert?
I hate to break it to you, but not all commentaries are accurate one way or the other. You will pick out what you want to see and ignore the rest.
As God inspired his written word he would have said foreign languages and not new tongues if you really meant foreign languages.
καινός (kainos) = new as in unheard of, unusual, new in species, character or mode. Clearly, a new tongue is a tongue that never existed before and does not mean only knew to the person using it but new as a tongue.
 
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swordsman1

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Most of your responses are simply dogged insistances that you are right despite all the evidence to the contrary. As you clearly seem to be wearing blinkers, there is little point debating those points any further.


What? How is this glossolalia?:

Acts 9:18 "And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;"



Where in Acts 8 does it mention Gentiles?

v17-18 doesn't mention tongues. It doesn't say what Simon saw. But tongues is something you hear, not see. Looks like you are once again reading your own presuppositions into the text.


They were Disciples of Jesus baptized by John. Paul didn't ask them who they believed in he asked them when they believe that they receive the Holy Spirit. Here's a good indication of how you presume and assume instead of presenting facts.

It doesn't say they were disciples of Jesus. It just says they were 'disciples'. After Paul interrogates them he finds out they are not Christians, but disciples of John the Baptist. Only after Paul told them about Jesus in v4 do they believe, receive the Holy Spirit and become disciples of Christ.
 
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swordsman1

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This wasn't my interpretation of new tongue it comes straight from Mounce.

You clearly didn't read Mounce's definition very thoroughly:

Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament:

καινός (kainos)
Strong: G2537
GK: G2785
new, recently made, Mt. 9:17; Mk. 2:22; new in species, character, or mode, Mt. 26:28, 29; Mk. 14:24, 25; Lk. 22:20; Jn. 13:34; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15; Eph. 2:15; 4:24; 1 Jn. 2:7; Rev. 3:12; novel, strange, Mk. 1:27; Acts 17:19; new to the possessor, Mk. 16:17; unheard of, unusual, Mk. 1:27; Acts 17:19; met. renovated, better, of higher excellence, 2 Cor. 5:17; Rev. 5:9
 
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StanJ

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Most of your responses are simply dogged insistances that you are right despite all the evidence to the contrary. As you clearly seem to be wearing blinkers, there is little point debating those points any further.
There has been no evidence to the contrary, just the misrepresentation of facts. If you want to walk away from this, that of course is your prerogative.
What? How is this glossolalia?:
Acts 9:18 "And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized;"
Being baptized in the Holy Spirit is shown by the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
Where in Acts 8 does it mention Gentiles?
Are you assuming there were no Gentiles in Samaria?
v17-18 doesn't mention tongues. It doesn't say what Simon saw. But tongues is something you hear, not see. Looks like you are once again reading your own presuppositions into the text.
How else could Simon see that they actually received the Holy Spirit if he didn't see them speaking in tongues? Now if Simon was blind then maybe Luke would have said heard, but clearly something happened to indicate the same and that they had received the Holy Spirit.
Wrong. Paul said into what were you baptized when you believed. John's baptism was just as Paul said, to believe in Jesus. They were Disciples of Jesus whom they believed in. They then received the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues and prophesy. That is the main point here but of course you're more than willing to deflect and strive about all these words in order to obscure what was really going on.
 
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