Asking the tough question

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Fellowshipping, praising, worshipping, being strenghthened in Jesus with other Christians so we can always give a defense to those outside of Christ for the reasons of our Faith, and to lead them into the Light of the Life that is in our Lord and Savior Jesus


Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them. [Isaiah 60:2,3]

John 1:3 All-things thru Him became and apart-from Him became/egeneto <1096> (5633) not-yet one-thing which has become.
4 In Him life was, and the Life was the Light of the men.

I must add to GLORIFY GOD corporately as we should because it please GOD, but I couldn't have said it better myself brother! woot!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I must add to GLORIFY GOD corporately as we should because it please GOD, but I couldn't have said it better myself brother! woot!

I also love these verses

Matthew 5:16 Thus let shine! the light of ye before the men, that they may seeing the ideal works and should be glorifying the Father of ye, the in the heavens.

1 Peter 2:12 The behavior of ye in the the nations having ideal, that in which they are speaking against ye as evil-doers, out of the ideal works being spectators they should be glorifying the God in day of visitation.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I also love these verses

Matthew 5:16 Thus let shine! the light of ye before the men, that they may seeing the ideal works and should be glorifying the Father of ye, the in the heavens.

1 Peter 2:12 The behavior of ye in the the nations having ideal, that in which they are speaking against ye as evil-doers, out of the ideal works being spectators they should be glorifying the God in day of visitation.

Proof positive that church ain't all bad eh?

 

[ebia]

What is the church if not the community in which one attempts to follow Christ?

 

[visionary]

Would you recognise it when it becomes a cage of every unclean thing? .. probably church sanction active gay priest lead too.. it may not be "every" yet...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Would you recognise it when it becomes a cage of every unclean thing? .. probably church sanction active gay priest lead too.. it may not be "every" yet...

Cage, prison.......REPENT!

Reve 2:10 No yet thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering/emotioning.
Behold! Is being about to be casting the Devil out ye into a prison/cage/fulakhn <5438>, that ye may be being tried.

Reve 18:2 and He cries-out in a strong voice saying "She falls She falls Babylon the great and She became a habitation of demons and a prison/cage/fulakh <5438> of every spirit unclean and a prison/cage/fulakh <5438> of every bird unclean and hated

phulake (Strong's 5438) occurs 47 times in 45 verses:

5438. phulake foo-lak-ay' from 5442; a guarding or (concretely, guard), the act, the person; figuratively, the place, the condition, or (specially), the time (as a division of day or night), literally or figuratively:--cage, hold, (im-)prison(-ment), ward, watch.
5440. phulak-terion foo-lak-tay'-ree-on neuter of a derivative of 5442; a guard-case, i.e. "phylactery" for wearing slips of Scripture texts:-- phylactery.

 

[judechild]

I'm sorry, but this seems to me to be an unfair question.

You might as well ask whether, given the choice between one or the other, you would inhale or exhale. In the Catholic view, the Church does follow Christ, so to follow the Church, is to follow Christ and vice-versa.

 

[mont974x4]

Well, this is kinda rhetorical question, it seems. Of course, the answer is Christ. BUT I have run into a good number of people who like their church and will stay with it even over what the Bible says! Maybe not so rhetorical after all.

I ahve run into that more than I care to think about. People choose their denominations doctrines and defend it, subjecting it to Scripture instead of allowing Scripture to lead their doctrine. Most of the time these people do not even know why they believe what they beleive.

 

[Uphill Battle]

What.. you do not see the difference between the Judaism of Yeshua and the christianity of Roman

I KNEW this was a lightly veiled slight at Catholics.



it is of course, flawed. to a Catholic, following the dictates of their Church, IS following Christ, so it's a non-issue.


got to love those AHA! moments.

 

[visionary]

Aha moments are even better coming from God.

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

If you were given a choice between following Christ or the church, which would you choose..

Jesus said to Saint Peter: On whom I will build my CHURCH.
So It's Church for me!!










[BIBLE] 1 Peter 3:3-4[/BIBLE]

 

[visionary]

Jesus said to Saint Peter: On whom I will build my CHURCH.
So It's Church for me!!










[BIBLE] 1 Peter 3:3-4[/BIBLE]

I am all for building up the church... but there has come a time in all of church history when God send prophets to warn the believers to repent or God will be upset and will do something.

We are being overwhelmed within the Christian community with all kinds of winds of doctrines, with people who believe that they can bring into the church that which is an abomination in the Lord's eyes, and have it all sanctified. From sexual perversions to breaching of the walls and foundations of the Lord's kingdom, we have seen people being taught that it is ok to keep your sins, because God is a god of Love. His grace is sufficient to cover all sins, including those actively being permitted within the clergy and taught from the pulpit.

God's benovelence is being sold and all the believer has to do is claim it, and God will continue to be the human race's servant. As a giver of all good gifts, God is thought of as the Santa, no matter how naughty or nice His children are.

We need a revival of the old gospel of repentence and purity. One where the people have a firm committment to honoring God not only in words but in deeds. Where there is a true understanding of what repentence really means, not just a ...yahhhhyahhhh I am sorry.. and then continue to sin... but an earnest effort to .. go and sin no more.. with prayerful attitude in every step taken that the Holy Spirit continues leading. I would love to see a revival not in the dramatic, but in the humble quietness, not in the loud and boistrous, but in the quiet and solomn consecrated efforts.

Many go to church to be entertained. If it is not as entertaining as the entertainment world, then they feel that it is not worth anything. There is a shallowness to the preaching, and much of the preaching today is made to tickle the ears. Convictions of sin are not as prevailant as they should be.

I am not saying that any of the truth, and the good solid preaching can not be found. I am not saying that you can not find it in churches.

What I am saying is that the discernment is less for some who know not. Hence the question.... which do you choose. .. the blanket answer that some have given with following the church... is like Yeshua... when he said "the blind leading the blind" and both will fall in the ditch.

With the spiritual eyes and spiritual ears that God has given to His believers, they will follow Him no matter where He leads them. He know where the different spiritual food is that is suitable for everyone's spiritual needs. And not everyone needs the same food at the same time.

It is the trap to think that what is contained between the walls and doors of a certain church is enough to contain God too.

 

[mont974x4]

EDIT: sorry wrong thread

 

[seashale76]

Doesn't the Church follow Christ?
Not sure I understand the question, but I have been known to be dense sometimes.

I would vote both ehehe....

Yep. Christ is the Head of the Church. Those in Christ's Holy Church have been baptized into Christ. The gates of hell won't prevail against Christ's Holy Church. The OP is only showing their lack of understanding by attempting to present a straw man type of argument which presents a false dichotomy (by insinuating that the Church is at odds with Christ because of that T word, which should frankly be counted among the four letter words of the world, and don't we want to make Jesus happy by following only the red letter part of the bible of the way after 1611 KJV?- or something along those lines anyway).

 

[judechild]

It is the trap to think that what is contained between the walls and doors of a certain church is enough to contain God too.

Pardon, but: and what's contained in a Book is?

No, I'm not saying the Bible isn't the written Word of God, I fully believe that; no arguement there. But Catholics believe the Church to be more than just the bricks and rafters; we hold that the fullest way God has revealed Himself is through the Catholic Church. I'm not saying that to be insulting, just wanting to state to way we see it.

 

[Seeking Him]

I am fully 5 solas....BUT I must state that those that don't take people's opinions regarding our faith cannot learn for or against our faith as a whole. We are all individuals but I don't disregard other's opinions if they fully show faithful knowledge on a subject.
The ECF's have a vast knowledge on our faith, some are out there, most are not...but honestly it's a great resource LLOJ.
I love to read the writings of those who were closer to Christ in reality than I...disciples of actual Apostles, etc. Those guys had a lot to say that pertain to our faith today. Honestly people who try to discredit the writings of the ECF's are fools IMHO. It's a very self-righteous attitude of many christians and entire denominations today.
It is in no way leisure reading!!! LOL
You'll be surprised at how much you will agree with many of their own writings.

Yes, I recently read the letters of Ignatius of Antioch. It builds your faith to see the grace this man had, encouraging the churches in these letters as he was on his way to the lion's den as a martyr. He quotes Paul: Look not at the things that are seen, but at the unseen. The things seen are temporal, the things unseen are eternal.

 

[Seeking Him]

I am all for building up the church... but there has come a time in all of church history when God send prophets to warn the believers to repent or God will be upset and will do something.

We are being overwhelmed within the Christian community with all kinds of winds of doctrines, with people who believe that they can bring into the church that which is an abomination in the Lord's eyes, and have it all sanctified. From sexual perversions to breaching of the walls and foundations of the Lord's kingdom, we have seen people being taught that it is ok to keep your sins, because God is a god of Love. His grace is sufficient to cover all sins, including those actively being permitted within the clergy and taught from the pulpit.

God's benovelence is being sold and all the believer has to do is claim it, and God will continue to be the human race's servant. As a giver of all good gifts, God is thought of as the Santa, no matter how naughty or nice His children are.

We need a revival of the old gospel of repentence and purity. One where the people have a firm committment to honoring God not only in words but in deeds. Where there is a true understanding of what repentence really means, not just a ...yahhhhyahhhh I am sorry.. and then continue to sin... but an earnest effort to .. go and sin no more.. with prayerful attitude in every step taken that the Holy Spirit continues leading. I would love to see a revival not in the dramatic, but in the humble quietness, not in the loud and boistrous, but in the quiet and solomn consecrated efforts.

Many go to church to be entertained. If it is not as entertaining as the entertainment world, then they feel that it is not worth anything. There is a shallowness to the preaching, and much of the preaching today is made to tickle the ears. Convictions of sin are not as prevailant as they should be.

I am not saying that any of the truth, and the good solid preaching can not be found. I am not saying that you can not find it in churches.

What I am saying is that the discernment is less for some who know not. Hence the question.... which do you choose. .. the blanket answer that some have given with following the church... is like Yeshua... when he said "the blind leading the blind" and both will fall in the ditch.

With the spiritual eyes and spiritual ears that God has given to His believers, they will follow Him no matter where He leads them. He know where the different spiritual food is that is suitable for everyone's spiritual needs. And not everyone needs the same food at the same time.

It is the trap to think that what is contained between the walls and doors of a certain church is enough to contain God too.

Good post! There are alot of winds of doctrine in the church. The prosperity merchants. There's part of the emergent church that is giving way to license. There's pastors who are not feeding the sheep, but teaching legalism and guilt. There's others I can't think of now. They need to repent as the churches in Revelation were told to do. Yet God has an Ecclessia, the called out ones who are hearing what the Spirit is saying to the church. They are blessed as they listen to Him and eat what is good! Their souls delight in the riches of fare. And they may not go to a church with four walls.

 

[Seeking Him]

Polycarp and Ignatus, two others in the first volume of the ECF, both learned directly from St. John the Apostle.

I love reading about Polycarp and Igatius. They are two disciples we can learn from. What faith and grace they had in their lives! Part of our grand cloud of witnesses for sure.