Asking the tough question

[Secundulus]

If I answer "Christ", how do I know the will of Christ except through the Church?
If I answer "Church", how do I have confidence in which Church's claim to orthodoxy?

How much confidence do you put in your own conscience or even personal revelation to be right? How much confidence do you put in your Church's claim to be right? What is the balance?

These questions may only be answered to one's satisfaction through prayer and study.

 

[PaladinValer]

Well, I just gotta ask if this has to do with my reply in your other thread here.

As my fellow Apostolic Christians have said, by following one, you follow the other.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

These questions may only be answered to one's satisfaction through prayer and study.

What "unbiased" studying do you recommend?

 

[Secundulus]

What "unbiased" studying do you recommend?

The Early Church Fathers. Start with Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

The Ante-Nicene church fathers are an excellent source actually.

Lot's of people know bout this site but I'll link it for those that do not:

Welcome to the Christian Classics Ethereal Library! | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Ante-Nicene church fathers are an excellent source actually.

Lot's of people know bout this site but I'll link it for those that do not:

Welcome to the Christian Classics Ethereal Library! | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Thanks. I suppose I am the only Christian on CF that has not read any of the ECFs writings and truthfully, I probably never will. I am afterall a heretical "SOLO SCRIPTURA" Christian

There are a few threads on them though

Who really cares what the ECF's had to say? - Page 7 - Christian Forums
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better? - Christian Forums
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Thanks. I suppose I am the only Christian on CF that has not read any of the ECFs writings and truthfully, I probably never will. I am afterall a heretical "SOLO SCRIPTURA" Christian

There are a few threads on them though

Who really cares what the ECF's had to say? - Page 7 - Christian Forums
Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better? - Christian Forums
Did the ECFs really know/understand the Scriptures better?

I am fully 5 solas....BUT I must state that those that don't take people's opinions regarding our faith cannot learn for or against our faith as a whole. We are all individuals but I don't disregard other's opinions if they fully show faithful knowledge on a subject.
The ECF's have a vast knowledge on our faith, some are out there, most are not...but honestly it's a great resource LLOJ.
I love to read the writings of those who were closer to Christ in reality than I...disciples of actual Apostles, etc. Those guys had a lot to say that pertain to our faith today. Honestly people who try to discredit the writings of the ECF's are fools IMHO. It's a very self-righteous attitude of many christians and entire denominations today.
It is in no way leisure reading!!! LOL
You'll be surprised at how much you will agree with many of their own writings.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am fully 5 solas....BUT I must state that those that don't take people's opinions regarding our faith cannot learn for or against our faith as a whole. We are all individuals but I don't disregard other's opinions if they fully show faithful knowledge on a subject.
The ECF's have a vast knowledge on our faith, some are out there, most are not...but honestly it's a great resource LLOJ.
I love to read the writings of those who were closer to Christ in reality than I...disciples of actual Apostles, etc. Those guys had a lot to say that pertain to our faith today. \
It is in no way leisure reading!!! LOL
You'll be surprised at how much you will agree with many of their own writings.

Perhaps.
But I find it more fruitiful hearing what others here are saying and I think you will agree there is much diversification/differences concerning the interpretation of the ECFs and even the early Councils.

My sole authority has been and will always be the Bible itself.

 

[Secundulus]

Perhaps.
But I find it more fruitiful hearing what others here are saying and I think you will agree there is much diversification/differences concerning the interpretation of the ECFs and even the early Councils.

My sole authority has been and will always be the Bible itself.

Clement, the author of the work I mentioned above, walked with the Apostles.

NASB95, Philippians 4:3
Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Perhaps.
But I find it more fruitiful hearing what others here are saying and I think you will agree there is much diversification/differences concerning the interpretation of the ECFs and even the early Councils.

My sole authority has been and will always be the Bible itself.

Oh my brother I am with you 100% with sola scriptura here. Authority is only from scripture.
But I definately find the ECF's writings as more legitimate(for lack of a better word) than most apologists, and posts here at CF for sure.
I agree...past the Chalcedon council...it went haywire IMHO!
When I say "Ante-Nicene" that concerns writings from ECF's before the Council of Nicea...they are especially interesting, due to the fact that they tell us a prequel of what was to come regarding orthodoxy today IMHO.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Clement, the author of the work I mentioned above, walked with the Apostles.

NASB95, Philippians 4:3
Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

His name comes from the transliterated greek word #2815.
I will have to ponder on whether he actually wrote an epistle.....but there again, I have never read it

The Greek word for Clement in Phil 4:3 - Page 4 - Christian Forums
The Greek word for Clement in Phil 4:3

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Phili 4:3 Yea I am asking also thee together-yoke! genuine! be thou helping them who-any in the Well-Message together-complete to-me with also/and Clement/klhmentoV <2815> and of the rests together-workers of me of whom the names in scroll of life.

 

[Secundulus]

Polycarp and Ignatus, two others in the first volume of the ECF, both learned directly from St. John the Apostle.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

His name comes from the transliterated greek word #2815.
I will have to ponder on whether he actually wrote an epistle.....but there again, I have never read it

The Greek word for Clement in Phil 4:3 - Page 4 - Christian Forums
The Greek word for Clement in Phil 4:3

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Phili 4:3 Yea I am asking also thee together-yoke! genuine! be thou helping them who-any in the Well-Message together-complete to-me with also/and Clement/klhmentoV <2815> and of the rests together-workers of me of whom the names in scroll of life.

I pray your read Clement's epistle...I honestly don't know why it's not in the official canon but I will state that the Holy Spirit had His reasons for guiding men to not include it eh!
It's a very excellent read regardless brother!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I pray your read Clement's epistle...I honestly don't know why it's not in the official canon but I will state that the Holy Spirit had His reasons for guiding men to not include it eh!
It's a very excellent read regardless brother!

I understand. I have never even read the Apocrypha, the books that were not considered Canon by some......

http://www.christianforums.com/t7316153/
The Apocrypha.

 

[New_Wineskin]

If you were given a choice between following Christ or the church, which would you choose..

I will never follow a club , again . And , that is what these groups are . As far as the Church is concerned - we are the Church . I cannot follow myself ( unless I am playing with words ) .

I will only follow the Lord .

 

[JimfromOhio]

Many people are forgetting the REAL purpose of the CHURCH. The idea that Jesus Christ has absolute and final authority over all of us in every detail of our lives is simply having faith in Him and His power of Grace. God will guide us into all truth. God is spirit and faith is required to know Christ and then, the Holy Spirit will reveal who God really is through His grace and power. As Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 2:19 "Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are His." The Bible clearly says that all Christians are a body of believers indwelt by the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13). Romans 8:9 says, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His." Spiritual Church is "invisible unity" which assumed to be imperfectly displayed, visibly: some denominations are less accepting of others, and the basic orthodoxy of some is questioned by most of the others. At the instant of our conversion, we become "eternal members" in the universal (catholic) church of Jesus Christ, based solely on His merit and grace.

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I will never follow a club , again . And , that is what these groups are . As far as the Church is concerned - we are the Church . I cannot follow myself ( unless I am playing with words ) .

I will only follow the Lord .

You have obviously had bad experiences with said "clubs", ie groups representing themselves as a "church" and not being one actually.
Can you share more?

 

[LiturgyInDMinor]

Bottom line is that it is an established orthodox fact that we should attend "church"...what's that mean anyway?

 

[archierieus]

How much confidence do you put in your own conscience or even personal revelation to be right? How much confidence do you put in your Church's claim to be right? What is the balance?

Bible truth is independent of my conscience or of any church group. My conscience is informed by moral training, study, etc, as well as influenced by the Spirit of God. But I way too often miss what God is trying to say to me. Dense male, ha!! So I do not trust my knowledge or my conscience, implicitly, but I DO trust the Bible. As for a church, it is a community of people, which is subject to error, to err is human. The standard is the Word of God, objectively understood, and, of course, through much prayerful study.

Dave

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Bottom line is that it is an established orthodox fact that we should attend "church"...what's that mean anyway?

Fellowshipping, praising, worshipping, being strenghthened in Jesus with other Christians so we can always give a defense to those outside of Christ for the reasons of our Faith, and to lead them into the Light of the Life that is in our Lord and Savior Jesus


Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them. [Isaiah 60:2,3]

John 1:3 All-things thru Him became and apart-from Him became/egeneto <1096> (5633) not-yet one-thing which has become.
4 In Him Life was, and the Life was the Light of the men.