Ask the pagan

[praisehimalleluia]

The abridged answer is "I have a soul". I might go into more detail on this subject in another post..

Tell me more about the soul. Is it the real person within the flesh? The journey of the soul in pagan beliefs.

 

[Steezie]

I would be very lonely to know I am born to live, just like an organism or bacteria, that I die and never have another beautiful journey into eternity. Perhaps that is what most people who hold on to faith feel.

Not necessarily. I'm rather stoked at the idea of not having a purpose. Think about it, you are dropped in this place with all this stuff to do and see and explore...but ya cant because you've got a mandate to fulfill. But with no purpose, then you make your own purpose. You enjoy the life that you have and be happy with it.

When you claim there is no good vs bad in why wicked ppl prosper. I wanna especially touch victims such as rape and abuse. we all know they are innocent. And about people who are so health conscious and very fit, and they develop cancer and heart diseases. Not because of them or their choices but at times, bad things happen to even the fittest on earth.

Karma will take care of the rapist in good time. The universe balances out all things.

Alternatively, you can pick up something to help the universe's job along.

when this strikes, do you think the victim will ever feel driven to why such stuff happens to them? Or even tsunami. Cases of poor countries being driven to death. What are your emotional thoughts on such lives that are being lost.

I personally feel bad for them and I would try to help, but shaking your fist at a tornado is unlikely to get it to leave you alone.

Were they born to die tragically in the hands of nature. And for people who are perhaps young girls who are raped and murdered. Are they born to die in the hands of wicked men? Isn't it fearsome for those little ones to know they were very alone, without any future in a hereafter? They die like any microorganisms?

I wouldnt say they have no future, but goodness and innocence is no armor against the negative forces of the world. That seems a very bleak outlook, but its realistic and we have to be realistic about who we are and our places in this world. This world was NOT created for us, at least some of us feel this way, it is not ours nor do we have the right to be angry at the forces that govern it when those forces roll the dice for us and it comes up snake eyes.

Are you saying the Universe is an accident and we as mankind are an accident as well? Well if I take your word now, my mind still cannot digest the the vast universe being made by an accident.

I think the impetus of our design, the starting gun, was shot off by forces beyond this realm of existence, but I see our progress thus far as being naturalistic in explanation. That spark that we associate with life is divine and our souls are beyond this world, but our bodies are part of this world and as such follow the same rules that this world has.

Imagine in our bodies, there is trillions of Blood Vessels, the circulation into micro-circulation of the vessels, and the tissues, organs, and the trillions of cells that make ONE Human Being. Its too precious to know we are made by an accident. If the Universe was an accident, can you imagine the vast accident that made such a beautiful accident?

It would be all the more impressive if we didn't know how these things evolved, but we do.

I perhaps can never digest the mind of being made by accident or by protein. Looking at the wrist watch I use, that is made by a man. Everything has a creator. So how are we perfectly assembled by accident?

Nature is VERY good at self-assembly, we can watch the process at work in a human embryo.

So what exactly makes mankind "feel" that guilt. That makes our mind detect "its wrong to do something". Even a small child, if the mom says NO to something, but the child does it, have u seen the little child quietly run and hide?. Every mom knows the child was up to something silly if the child or the house have a sudden silence while usually its noisy with their children's naughty activities at home.

That depends what explanation you'd prefer.

Human beings are social creatures and certain traits make it more likely that we'll survive in a group situation. Guilt prevents us from doing things detrimental to the group because that may get us thrown out of the group and we have a far lower chance of survival on our own than we do as a group.

Morality may be partially ingrained in us via evolution to facilitate us being social creatures.

So what makes that little child "trigger its mind that its wrong to disobey its mom?"

"Mom gives me food and can punish me"

If we were guiltless then we will never bother to know right from wrong.

Not true at all. There is a marked difference between not having guilt or remorse and knowing right from wrong. Many serial killers dont or cant feel guilt or remorse but they certainly know what they did was wrong.

Tell me more about the soul. Is it the real person within the flesh? The journey of the soul in pagan beliefs.

This belief varies somewhat from person to person, but I believe that my soul will leave my body after I die and go on to a place of rest and reflection where it can look at the life it has lived and decide what to do next.

 

[praisehimalleluia]

That depends what explanation you'd prefer.

Human beings are social creatures and certain traits make it more likely that we'll survive in a group situation. Guilt prevents us from doing things detrimental to the group because that may get us thrown out of the group and we have a far lower chance of survival on our own than we do as a group.

Morality may be partially ingrained in us via evolution to facilitate us being social creatures.

So what makes that little child "trigger its mind that its wrong to disobey its mom?"
​

"Mom gives me food and can punish me"

Punishment is not known by a child as the cause of disobedience. Its an instinct deep within our souls that triggers guilt. Perhaps this comes to mind of how unique our soul is. If a human embryo forms by itself, without a soul, its not a life. IT will never be. Thus miscarriages happens etc. We, with our limited mind, still can not understand the creation of life. Even with so many IVFs and reproductive technology, there are many childless couples in the world. Simply because, we by ourselves, still can never produce such a life without some intervention. Or give me your say for this. So the soul is a unique entity by itself, and definitely not by an accident. A molecule is made up of atoms, and within it, there are nucleus, proton, much more that recent discovery made it possible to discover em.

But yet with such vast technologies, our mind is very limited to understanding huge stuff for example till today the Psychiatrist can never cure a mental patient 100%. Insanity is a sickness that modern medicine is till trying to advance and yet a Psychiatrist claim the mind is too complex and there is still more to discover which has not been discovered.

So what makes creation an accident? I still cannot get your ideas, beloved friends.

 

[sidhe]

Punishment is not known by a child as the cause of disobedience. Its an instinct deep within our souls that triggers guilt. Perhaps this comes to mind of how unique our soul is.

Um, not really. It may be a personal failing, but I see guilt as unhealthy, not a natural instinct. Living with no regrets keeps me sane...I only regret what I didn't do, not what I've done.

If a human embryo forms by itself, without a soul, its not a life. IT will never be. Thus miscarriages happens etc.

Miscarriages happen for many reasons involving hormone levels, nutrition, illness, etc. These are all quantifiable. If you wish to believe that the soul is involved, that's fine, but it's not objective.

We, with our limited mind, still can not understand the creation of life. Even with so many IVFs and reproductive technology, there are many childless couples in the world. Simply because, we by ourselves, still can never produce such a life without some intervention. Or give me your say for this. So the soul is a unique entity by itself, and definitely not by an accident. A molecule is made up of atoms, and within it, there are nucleus, proton, much more that recent discovery made it possible to discover em.

But what intervention do you point to? There is none that is visible.

But yet with such vast technologies, our mind is very limited to understanding huge stuff for example till today the Psychiatrist can never cure a mental patient 100%. Insanity is a sickness that modern medicine is till trying to advance and yet a Psychiatrist claim the mind is too complex and there is still more to discover which has not been discovered

Okay, just as a side note: Insanity is a legal term, not a disease. Bipolar Disorder Type I? Disease. Schizoaffective Disorder? Disease. Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder? Disease. And they can't be cured because either we don't know what causes it exactly, or we can't undo it (see, PTSD).

So what makes creation an accident? I still cannot get your ideas, beloved friends.

It's not an accident at all. It's a frakkin' miracle that some deity went "plonk!" on an atom and triggered a chain reaction that lead to me typing on this computer, wearing clothes made of natural fibers, and caused the existence of everything else you see.

Seriously, which is more impressive - a G-d who has to craft each moment individually, or a G-d who performed one action which led to everything existing?

If you want, look at the Qabalah - the entirety of creation is the result of deity looking at their belly button. "What am I? I'm THIS! But not THAT! But I'm kind of like THAT with a little THIS, and sometimes I'm like THAT with a little THIS, but sometimes I'm just THIS and THAT, and sometimes I'm really like THAT, but not at all THAT, and sometimes I'm really like THIS, but not at all THIS, and sometimes I have an idea of what I am, and I think I look like creation..."

 

[Gardenia]

I don't think some God instilled guilt must be the only reason why human children often mind their parents. You say children don't know they will be punished if they disobey their parent, and that makes no sense to me. They do something wrong, they are punished, they are able to understand this. Is it the only reason? No, but it is a factor. Another reason is simply that I would think many children do not want their parents to be angry with them. Really, who wants to be yelled at? Children desire the love of their parents. (Let's not even get into the fact that there are quite a few parents who seem to be really into giving people guilt trips.) Although I am a theist, these things can all be explained without any need for Deity, they are not a convincing argument.

But yet with such vast technologies, our mind is very limited to understanding huge stuff for example till today the Psychiatrist can never cure a mental patient 100%. Insanity is a sickness that modern medicine is till trying to advance and yet a Psychiatrist claim the mind is too complex and there is still more to discover which has not been discovered.

And 100 years ago we could not cure some of the things we can cure today. We're learning, still. This knowledge, technology, it's not instant.. it takes time. We've made huge leaps in science, medicine, and the like.. there's no reason to think we'll stop here.

 

[RedRaven]

Punishment is not known by a child as the cause of disobedience. Its an instinct deep within our souls that triggers guilt. Perhaps this comes to mind of how unique our soul is. If a human embryo forms by itself, without a soul, its not a life. IT will never be. Thus miscarriages happens etc. We, with our limited mind, still can not understand the creation of life. Even with so many IVFs and reproductive technology, there are many childless couples in the world. Simply because, we by ourselves, still can never produce such a life without some intervention. Or give me your say for this. So the soul is a unique entity by itself, and definitely not by an accident. A molecule is made up of atoms, and within it, there are nucleus, proton, much more that recent discovery made it possible to discover em.

But yet with such vast technologies, our mind is very limited to understanding huge stuff for example till today the Psychiatrist can never cure a mental patient 100%. Insanity is a sickness that modern medicine is till trying to advance and yet a Psychiatrist claim the mind is too complex and there is still more to discover which has not been discovered.

So what makes creation an accident? I still cannot get your ideas, beloved friends.

Children learn quickly the tone of voice that comes with disobedience. I have two young children and I can say they didn't feel guilt about things they did that we hadn't discussed the rules for. Example, if my 18 month old got into the flour and made a mess he doesn't understand I am upset until he sees my face or hears my tone. At that point he learns he isn't suppose to do that. He may feel guilt after he realizes I'm not happy but not during his mess making. If he does it again he may feel guilt as he hears me approach the kitchen because we've been down this road and mom wasn't happy the first time. They start learning VERY early on. Notice some children don't feel guilt over something another child with stricter parents may feel guilty over.

To discuss what you said about creating life without intervention I need to know what interventions you are talking about and if you are applying that to the average couple. I already stated we have two kids and we didn't need any medical intervention whatsoever.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Holy thread revival, Batman! Rather than starting a new thread, I thought we might re-use an old one. (Just to keep the anti-Mohammed posts from spamming the whole NCR-forum.)

So, fire away! I'll answer your questions on paganism.

 

[PassionFruit]

Oh cool, I forgot about this thread.

Because I was curious about what pagans believe about fairies, but I was afraid to ask because I thought I would sound silly. I'm only asking because I have ran across books that dealt with how to summon them. Also does this also depend on what type of pagan you are?

 

[Wicked Willow]

Oh cool, I forgot about this thread.

Because I was curious about what pagans believe about fairies, but I was afraid to ask because I thought I would sound silly. I'm only asking because I have ran across books that dealt with how to summon them. Also does this also depend on what type of pagan you are?

There is no definition that correctly pegs me in some category - and I prefer it that way.
I can see how that's not a very satisfying answer, though, so I'll try to explain where I'm coming from: basically, I appreciate new insights regardless of where I find them. Zen techniques are just as precious to me as Sufi poetry, the writings of some Christian mystics, the Tao te Ch'ing, Romantic poetry, philosophical treatises, Jungian psychology, Joseph Campbell's mythology, shamanic drumming - or even the graphic novels of a certain Alan Moore. (Not to forget Nature, of course. But all of our creations are a part of nature, too.)
I started out as a pretty generic pagan, but quickly found that most sources on Wicca or witchcraft were insufficiently researched for my taste: where did the rituals come from? What was all that "watchtower of the North" business about? So I followed that line of inquiry, and discovered the Western Esoteric tradition: Crowley, the Golden Dawn, Blavatsky's theosophy (which got pretty much everything wrong, but nevertheless proved a lasting influence on the West, particularly on the "New Age"-scene), Paracelsus, Cornelius Agrippa, the Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz...
Recently, I discovered genuine Tantra and its association with the Feminine Principle. (Interestingly enough, this discovery was entirely "accidental", first triggered when the father of a good friend of mine asked me to translate the Saundarya Lahari. I love synchronicity.)
So, what does that make me? I'm certainly not a New Ager, as I abhor the shallow plastic promiscuity of that sub-culture.


But your second question concerned fairies: well, I mostly conceive of them as demoted deities, "fallen" archetypes that literally shrunk to diminutive size as their religion devolved into folklore. Once upon a time, the "Fair Folk" was a euphemism for beings that evoked a certain holy terror in the populace. Starting with Shakespeare, they gradually came to be regarded as inconsequential, silly creatures, and from the 19th century onward, the picture of gossamer-winged, tiny females dancing on flower beds became the norm. (Tolkien deeply resented Shakespeare for that: his Elves are basically an attempt at recalling some of that former glory, which could still be detected in Spenser's Faerie Queene.)

 

[razeontherock]

I believe that the universe was brought into existence by Deity, although I do not see this as in conflict with what science has shown.. I don't take any one creation story as literal, but rather see all of them as symbolic pieces of a bigger picture that we can't fully understand right now.

Wow, so I agree with a Pagan. Who knew?

 

[razeontherock]

Questions like "What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow"?

Well that depends, is that an African or a European swallow?

 

[razeontherock]

Pagans almost always are people that think this life and how you life it is most important rather what you say or believe. They value real knowledge, wisdom and truth, rather than "mysteries", foolishness and the idea that what seems true is really just a lie and what is fantastical is true....

Sounds like real Christianity to me.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Sounds like real Christianity to me.

You mean the kind where deeds actually *matter*, not as attempts at ingratiating oneself, but as genuine acts of kindness, and everything doesn't revolve around joining the right party before the afterlife commences?

 

[razeontherock]

I've fnorded a Masonic lodge by doing the chicken dance in the parking lot. Alcohol was involved.

Now THIS, requires further investigation!

I dig the mysteries. Initiation is a mystery tradition. It's rather what separates us from some other religions...someone says "You have no proof of that" and we don't throw a hissy fit, we just say "Yeah, and? It works in my experience."

Again, sounds like real Christianity to me.

 

[razeontherock]

I wrote "sounds like real Christianity to me."

You mean the kind where deeds actually *matter*, not as attempts at ingratiating oneself, but as genuine acts of kindness, and everything doesn't revolve around joining the right party before the afterlife commences?

Yup, that's the stuff! You've heard of it?

Seriously, there are some beautiful people here! I wish Christians would learn to be as genuine. Thanks for reviving this thread! I'm surprised how many have mentioned the Gods of my ancestors; Ullr, Thor, Odin, etc. (Ok nobody mentioned Ullr but hey, I ski) My Sons are Asatru. No social influence there whatsoever. Genetic? That's not my question since obviously nobody here can answer that, just throwing it into the mix as a point of interest.

I have never encountered another person who sees what I do, (until discussing it at length with me that is) that Asatru has the same underlying principles as Christianity. Very different means of expression yes, but same Truths. The only real difference I see is the Asatru had no role model worthy of following, so the rugged individualism isn't directed or tempered. Generally people have gotten upset with me when I raise this point, but there hasn't been much occasion as not a lot of people around me know anything about Asatru. Jesus was a rugged individualist, but leaves an example for a Christian, albeit vague.

So first of all, is Asatru considered Pagan? Or I guess I should start w/ is anybody here familiar w/ Asatru? Is it the same as worship of Odin? If I had to guess I'd say no, but I really don't know.

Next, anybody that is familiar w/ Asatru, do you think I'm out to lunch comparing it to Christianity? Yggdrasil serves the role of the Christian Bible, Christ Himself, (identical) as well as the Gospel. (His death, burial and resurrection)
The runes ... wow, I could go on and on. Let's see, the wood it's carved into, it's age, any significance of the tree it's from. Compare that to the cross!?! In Christianity the pre-incarnate Christ is creator, knowing how a tree will be used before He makes the first one so that's some pretty darned significant wood there. Then the blood soaked into the rune and again, the nobility of whose blood it is. Now we get to the meaning of the runes, compared to the secretive Christian knowledge only gained by patient observation before God's still small voice. (Yeah that would be the part the church has gone without for so long)

Sorry for the lengthy post but this is deep and words are not my forte. Am I way off-base?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Sorry for the lengthy post but this is deep and words are not my forte. Am I way off-base?

Not that I'm an expert on Asatru, but based on what I do know I think you are off-base in the same sort of way that people who attempt to link the Christ myth to Horus, Mithras, or other pagan deities are reaching a bit to make a connection.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sidhe]

Not that I'm an expert on Asatru, but based on what I do know I think you are off-base in the same sort of way that people who attempt to link the Christ myth to Horus, Mithras, or other pagan deities are reaching a bit to make a connection.


eudaimonia,

Mark

^ this.

 

[Druweid]

My Sons are Asatru. No social influence there whatsoever. Genetic? That's not my question since obviously nobody here can answer that, just throwing it into the mix as a point of interest.

It's as likely that your sons relate to the Norse pantheon as they find it easier to relate to 'ancestors,' or feel some other sub-conscious connection. As you say, though, there may be no clear answers, just thoughts.

I have never encountered another person who sees what I do, (until discussing it at length with me that is) that Asatru has the same underlying principles as Christianity. Very different means of expression yes, but same Truths.

A Truth is a truth, no matter who says it. And I believe it's true, that minus the labels, names, the window dressings, etc., the various religions of this world share a great deal. This is not to say that all religions are similar, per se', only that they share some common ground.

So first of all, is Asatru considered Pagan?

Yes and no. In a general sense, being a non-Abrahamic religion, Asatru falls under the umbrella designation of being one of many Pagan religions. More specifically, though, Asatru is a form of Heathenism. You could look at it as being a different name for the same type of practice (the difference being purely regional), or as a sister religion to Paganism.

Or I guess I should start w/ is anybody here familiar w/ Asatru?

I am somewhat familiar with it, having known a few adherents. I've not studied it in-depth at all.

Is it the same as worship of Odin?

Not really. Much like other Pagan religions, the various deities of the pantheon are more representative than literal, and one does not worship so much as one communes with them. However, and again like other Pagan religions, there are no hard-and-fast rules, you can find significant variations in how people choose to practice their Heathenism.

Next, anybody that is familiar w/ Asatru, do you think I'm out to lunch comparing it to Christianity?

You might see that both a Ford Focus and a Toyota Celica have similarities to the original Ford Model T. Would it make you "out to lunch" to compare the Celica to the Focus?

Anyhow, that's my take on it. Best of luck with your journey.
-- Druweid

 

[Wicked Willow]

re: Asatru

I think certain similarities may be owed to the fact that the most important texts associated with the Norse pantheon (namely the Eddas) were written well within the Christian Era, making it more than likely that at least some motifs have "bled over" through close cultural contact.

With regards to values that are communicated (IOW: traits that are regarded as virtues or vices, etc.): there isn't an unlimited number of functional social configurations, so chances are that most societies will share a considerable portion of sentiments as to what constitutes social or anti-social conduct.

What you *do* find in the Norse pantheon, however, are traces of the Shamanic journey and the descent/ascent into the Otherworlds. Long before the Graeco-Pagan mysteries appeared on the stage of world history, long before the first Christians existed, shamans experienced their initiation as death and rebirth. The typical initiatory experience sees them ripped apart in the underworld, only to have them rise again: renewed, purified, reinforced.

Before Odin replaced Tyr as the chief deity of the Germanic pantheon, he was probably a mortal shaman/magician, whose "six-legged horse" refered to a certain drum beat that would carry him up and down the "world tree". And of course, he was the only male deity to bend the gender-norms of his day and become a master of seithr, a form of magic associated with women.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Why do you folks consume baby kittehs?