Ask the pagan

[awitch]

Do you believe that one's ancestry has any significance in determining their connection with specific gods?

Nope. Not sure why it would matter.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Do you believe that one's ancestry has any significance in determining their connection with specific gods? I've heard some pagans say that it would be meaningless for a person of European descent to worship Baron Samedi or Shango or Inari or Veracoca.

Not necessarily, however to some it matters, to others it doesn't. I'm not in any way Greek or Italian, however one of the first deities I was drawn to was Hekate (a Greek/Roman goddess) and I've always liked Demeter and Persephone. I have also worked with and worshipped Ayizan Velekete and Yemaya. Ancestor veneration is important to me, however, so it just happens that I am more drawn to European deities. I think Ayizan will always have a special place in my heart though.

If it helps, I've met many non-africans who practice African syncretic religions who have no blood relation to their deities/lwa spirits. It works for them and they seem more than happy. I like to think that deities are beyond ancestral connections.

 

[Gardenia]

Do your spells actually bring about any supernatural effects, or are they simply another method of prayer?

I consider spells to be slightly different than prayer, but similar at the same time. To me, magic is the gathering and focusing of natural (rather than supernatural) energy, and the direction of that energy towards a specific goal.

Could you cast a spell to control someone or make someone who hates you fall madly in love with you?

In theory, yes, such a spell could be cast. In practice, I never have (and have no plans to.. what sort of love would that be?), so I can't really tell you much beyond that.

 

[Gardenia]

Do you believe that one's ancestry has any significance in determining their connection with specific gods? I've heard some pagans say that it would be meaningless for a person of European descent to worship Baron Samedi or Shango or Inari or Veracoca.

I have absolutely no ancient Egyptian ancestors (er, that I know of anyway!), but I would say my relationship with these Gods is very far from meaningless. For some, they are drawn to the gods of their ancestors, or their gods come to them because of that, and they form strong bonds with them. I have not felt my relationships with my gods (or my ancestors, for that matter) has suffered or been any less because of my ancestry, so I would not say it is necessary.

Plus, which gods would I worship? I am Japanese, Scottish, Irish, and Abanaki indian.. that would be quite the mix of gods and religions!

 

[Skilletdude]

Why identify as pagan? Actually, what exactly does it mean to be pagan today? From my understanding a pagan is an old term for someone who was not a Christian (or rather, someone who was not a follower of any Abrahamic religion) . And whenever I think of pagan today, I think of old Celtic races living in the woods with flowers in their hair and spirit magic or whatever... which I think is mostly cause movies paint pagans this way and books like Mists of Avalon. So I'm kind of confused by what exactly people mean when they identify as pagan today.

Just something I've always been curious about.

 

[Aesjn]

Pagans almost always are people that think this life and how you life it is most important rather what you say or believe. They value real knowledge, wisdom and truth, rather than "mysteries", foolishness and the idea that what seems true is really just a lie and what is fantastical is true....

 

[Wicked Willow]

Do you believe that one's ancestry has any significance in determining their connection with specific gods?

Ancestry? Not so much. I'd say cultural imprinting is MUCH more important than that. (IOW, no matter how hard you try, you can never turn yourself into a genuine Siberian shaman unless you live like one, wholly immersed into the culture and its way of thinking. Otherwise, you remain a European/American wearing a fancy costume and aping a spiritual path that you've grasped only on the intellectual level (at best) or barely scratched on the surface (at worst).

That said, I do think that it's possible to transfer spiritual paths or cultural aspects from one people to another; it's been done in the past, and it's still done at present. Furthermore, I think it's possible, permissible, and - in the final analysis - even inevitable to "borrow" from other cultures and religions that you come into contact with.

I unabashedly admit that my personal path is a colourful, ever-growing hodgepodge of diverse influences. I've never wholly understood some religions' fixation with canonicity and dogma; it seems such a HUGE stumbling block to any kind of growth or spiritual evolution - a sort of sterile, crystallized system incapable of adopting new insights, or adapting to changed circumstances.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Pagans almost always are people that think this life and how you life it is most important rather what you say or believe. They value real knowledge, wisdom and truth, rather than "mysteries", foolishness and the idea that what seems true is really just a lie and what is fantastical is true....

To be fair, though, many atheists that one would never think of as pagan could say the exact same thing. This doesn't really narrow down what a pagan is.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[sidhe]

Why identify as pagan? Actually, what exactly does it mean to be pagan today? From my understanding a pagan is an old term for someone who was not a Christian (or rather, someone who was not a follower of any Abrahamic religion) . And whenever I think of pagan today, I think of old Celtic races living in the woods with flowers in their hair and spirit magic or whatever... which I think is mostly cause movies paint pagans this way and books like Mists of Avalon. So I'm kind of confused by what exactly people mean when they identify as pagan today.

Just something I've always been curious about.

Let me C&P this from another board I'm on:

When I say I'm pagan, I mean I'm pagan.

That's the short version. The long version (is long!) would go that I'm an Irish polytheist without the dedication to really be a reconstructionist but with enough understanding of the early culture to kinda be one. I also mean that I generally celebrate the Sabbats, have a cheap toy figurine I got at Target on my bedside table that kinda represents how I envision the Morrigan and I have a candle I light in front of it frequently. I wear a handcrafted stone, horn, and wood bead necklace a good friend made me based on the way I resonate her energy. It gets taken off when I get in the shower...and that's about it. I've got a seven pointed star tattooed at the base of my spine, and another one made of silver that I wear 24/7, as well as a stylized Celtic raven pentacle. I also have an extensive knowledge of Thelemic magick and philosophy, and am a bit more than a dilettante ceremonial magician...thus a second, different seven-pointed star pendant, and a standard pentacle on a separate chain.

It means I have a large collection of odd e-books and have spent large sums of money on getting a book at Borders only because they had it AT THAT MOMENT and I might NEVER GET IT AGAIN!

It also means that I get cutlery catalogs because I might finally get the wherewithal to buy an unset blade and some wood and make my own athame.

It means I've gotten into arguments with employers before because I needed to be off on October 31st, and not because I was going to a party. It means that when I have customers asking me about where I go to church I get a bit uncomfortable, especially when they're asking in terms of the disposition of my eternal wellbeing.

It means I have the entire Inkubus Sukkubus collection on my laptop, along with several volumes of The Equinox, and the gargantuan collection of listserv posts called The Internet Book of Shadows. Coincidentally, I can sing the last verse of "Kill A Tree (Jingle Bells Parody)" at the drop of a hat.

It also means that I'm fully aware that Inkubus Sukkubus used three or four drum samples total on the last four or five albums, and that they really aren't that good.

It means that when I bought a used oracle deck online, and it arrived missing a card, I took it as an omen that I didn't need that card for my purposes.

It means I have an incense and candles budget monthly.

It means I get AzureGreen four times a year, Sacred Source as they send out, and buy issues of PanGaia, NewWitch, or SageWoman as they hit the shelves if they look interesting.

It means I've had discussions that required translation for other people.

It means I know the difference between a Gardnerian, an Alexandrian, and a British Traditionalist, I know what "folkish" and "universalist" mean in a discussion of heathenry, and I know that "Celtic" and "Irish" are not 100% synonymous.

I've fnorded a Masonic lodge by doing the chicken dance in the parking lot. Alcohol was involved.

On the subject of my time as a college-age pagan, it means that when the college students I work with describe the "wild party" they went to over the weekend, I'm wondering what part of it was wild and/or shocking.

I can MacGyver a circle in MacDonald's if necessary.

I have a folding athame for portability.

It means I had a friend call me up from across the country because she'd lost her keys, and wanted to know if I could pretty-please ask the faeries to give them back.

Mainly, though, it just means I'm pagan.

Pagans almost always are people that think this life and how you life it is most important rather what you say or believe. They value real knowledge, wisdom and truth, rather than "mysteries", foolishness and the idea that what seems true is really just a lie and what is fantastical is true....

Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?

I dig the mysteries. In fact, I'd say part of paganism is that we celebrate mystery...if something can't be explained, we don't make a big deal of it. Initiation is a mystery tradition. It's rather what separates us from some other religions...someone says "You have no proof of that" and we don't throw a hissy fit, we just say "Yeah, and? It works in my experience. You don't have to do it."

 

[Aesjn]

Whatchoo talkin' bout, Willis?

I dig the mysteries. In fact, I'd say part of paganism is that we celebrate mystery...if something can't be explained, we don't make a big deal of it. Initiation is a mystery tradition. It's rather what separates us from some other religions...someone says "You have no proof of that" and we don't throw a hissy fit, we just say "Yeah, and? It works in my experience. You don't have to do it."

Mysteries were big with the Greeks... and IMO, that gave us the Christianity which is basically a complete reversal of everything normal.

But with 'mystery' I also meant the very Orthodox idea of "mystery", which is basically a dogma that makes no sense but you have to just believe and shut up in essence. Pagan religions were hardly ever about that.

My point was though, was that Christians will say that the "truth of this world" is actually foolishness, while pagan societies regarded this world as quite real and were based around attempting to understand it and live well in it, rather than rejecting it.

 

[sidhe]

Mysteries were big with the Greeks... and IMO, that gave us the Christianity which is basically a complete reversal of everything normal.

But with 'mystery' I also meant the very Orthodox idea of "mystery", which is basically a dogma that makes no sense but you have to just believe and shut up in essence. Pagan religions were hardly ever about that.

My point was though, was that Christians will say that the "truth of this world" is actually foolishness, while pagan societies regarded this world as quite real and were based around attempting to understand it and live well in it, rather than rejecting it.

Pagan religions were mystery religions. They were based around secrets and gnosis, special classes of priests, initiations, etc.

It's rather silly to say that paganism rejects mystery so long as there are initiatory traditions with secrets that only remain within the initiated circle. As someone who's spent time in those traditions, there are things you accept as true simply because it's the way it's taught - there's no reason for them, just that This Is The Way It Is. For an example from the qabalah (non-initiatory, non-oathbound material), it's TOTALLY ARBITRARY that Chesed, the fourth sphere on the Tree of Life, is colored blue. Why is it blue? Because blue is associated with Jupiter. Why is blue associated with Jupiter? Because that's the way it is. Why is Jupiter associated with Chesed? Because Chesed represents fatherhood. Why? Because there are four letters in the Tetragrammaton, the name of G-d the Father. Why do we use the Tetragrammaton? That's the way it is, this is based in Jewish mysticism, so we do what they do. It's all pretty arbitrary, but it represents a closed system - like the Dewey Decimal cataloging system. Is there a reason that 200s are religion? Yes, because that's where Dewey put them.

This thread is too short to get into reality mapping and our personal systems of organizing information, but if you look at religions as mapping systems rather than reality itself, it becomes more obvious when flaws arrive. Mystery - even in the Orthodox form - isn't an issue itself so long as the Mystery is related to the system itself, not to the reality the system is mapping.

ETA: To put in actual mapping terms - if a map calls the mountain commonly known as "Mt. James", "Mt. Jimmy Crack Corn" without explanation, it doesn't change that the map is cataloging the mountain, the mystery of why we call it Mt. Jimmy Crack Corn is totally unimportant. If the map says that "Mt. James" is "The Bottomless Pit of Despair" and describes it as a ten-mile deep crevasse without explanation, then the mystery of The Bottomless Pit of Despair is going to cause a problem.

What you describe in the last couple sentences isn't Christian vs. Pagan, but dualist vs. monist. Dualism is good/bad, black/white, moral/immoral; there are traditions outside of Christianity which uphold dualism. Monism would state that all things are the same, but intent and effect determine morality - nothing is inherently bad. Thus would come a rejection of the idea that the earth/body is inherently evil.

 

[Wicked Willow]

Of course, apart from the colloquial meaning of "mystery", there's also the whole aspect of something that must be experienced rather than explained. (Which, within the mystery religions, was what initiation was all about: partaking of something that could not be circumscribed by language.)

 

[sidhe]

Of course, apart from the colloquial meaning of "mystery", there's also the whole aspect of something that must be experienced rather than explained. (Which, within the mystery religions, was what initiation was all about: partaking of something that could not be circumscribed by language.)

Bingo, WW.

 

[Gardenia]

Of course, apart from the colloquial meaning of "mystery", there's also the whole aspect of something that must be experienced rather than explained. (Which, within the mystery religions, was what initiation was all about: partaking of something that could not be circumscribed by language.)

Exactly, and this is a huge part of many pagan traditions.

 

[Gardenia]

To be fair, though, many atheists that one would never think of as pagan could say the exact same thing. This doesn't really narrow down what a pagan is.

The 'problem' is the term paganism covers a huge amount of traditions. You can't really narrow down what it is to be a pagan, because what one tradition does and believes could be totally different from another. Now, when we start getting down to what it means to be one of those specific traditions, you can sometimes get a better idea. Before that, you're left with a huge umbrella term which can sometimes not be all that helpful..

 

[PT Calvinist]

Questions:

What is witchcraft?

What is Sin?

Are you (as a pagan) a leaglist?

Are you (as a pagan) a Liberalist?

Why do you believe in the God(s), god(s), and/or G(g)oddesses, beings, energies, etc.?

Is there an afterlife? How do you know if there is or isn't one?

 

[awitch]

Questions:

What is witchcraft?

The practice of magic.

What is Sin?

The Christian concept of doing things that their god doesn't approve of.

Are you (as a pagan) a leaglist?

The Chinese political philosophy of Legalism? No.

Are you (as a pagan) a Liberalist?

I'm a liberal leaning moderate.

Why do you believe in the God(s), god(s), and/or G(g)oddesses, beings, energies, etc.?

Personal experience.

Is there an afterlife? How do you know if there is or isn't one?

I don't know. No one does. But my personal belief is that there is.

 

[Skilletdude]

The 'problem' is the term paganism covers a huge amount of traditions. You can't really narrow down what it is to be a pagan, because what one tradition does and believes could be totally different from another. Now, when we start getting down to what it means to be one of those specific traditions, you can sometimes get a better idea. Before that, you're left with a huge umbrella term which can sometimes not be all that helpful..

Ah, I see. This is kind of what I figured but I was hoping to get a better understanding of what it actually meant. Which then actually brings me back to my first question? Why identify as just "Pagan" in the first place? Why not narrow it down a bit. Like I think Wiccan is a pagan religion and I'm sure there are others... I don't know it seems like just saying "Pagan" is like if I or anyone else were to just say "we're Abrahamic" but never getting more specific than that... and that really could mean a whole bunch of beliefs and practices. So not very helpful to identify by. Do you each have a more specific pagan religion/culture you identify with and if so, why not use that to identify by than just the general pagan.

Oh and sorry, last question, if it's more of a cultural thing, were these kind of traditions passed down to you or did you just pick them up and pick which pagan culture/traditions you wish to identify with?

Thanks =)

 

[Gardenia]

Questions:

What is witchcraft?
Although the question was a bit different, I think an earlier answer could apply here as well.. "To me, magic is the gathering and focusing of natural (rather than supernatural) energy, and the direction of that energy towards a specific goal."

What is Sin?
The closest concept my spirituality (again, this is not true for all pagans) has to sin would be the idea of isfet - the opposite of the concept of ma'at of the ancient Egyptians. To put it very simply, ma'at is.. well, the way things should be. Order, truth, balance. The correct state of the cosmos. Again, that's put rather simply. Isfet, then, is the idea of doing something you know to be wrong. Yes, there is a lot of room for personal understanding when it comes to both concepts. There's no list of "this is what to do, this is what not to do."
However, we can gain knowledge of what was thought to be within ma'at, and what is not, by looking at what is commonly called the 42 negative confessions, found within many copies of the book of the dead. It is important to note, however, that again these are not laws. They are meant to be purifications/declarations for that individual dead person, and they do vary from book to book often enough. Some examples which can be found in many examples are; I have not murdered, I have not stolen, I have not committed adultery, I have not lied, I have not wasted water, I have not been an eavesdropper, I have not closed myself to the words of truth (ma'at).

Are you (as a pagan) a leaglist?
Could you elaborate on the question a bit for me?

Are you (as a pagan) a Liberalist?
Yes, you could say that.

Why do you believe in the God(s), god(s), and/or G(g)oddesses, beings, energies, etc.?
I believe in Deity because my personal experiences (I have heard and felt the presence of Deity) have brought me to this conclusion.

Is there an afterlife? How do you know if there is or isn't one?
I believe there is one. Again, it is in line with my personal experiences. However, no way to know for sure until we're there..

 

[PT Calvinist]

The Chinese political philosophy of Legalism?

Not familiar with it...

Could you elaborate on the question a bit for me?

Certainly...Controling?
In the sense of your practices and in relationships