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Ask an atheist!

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Well, there might be some type of evidence that would convince someone or a cumulative collection of evidences that would convince them. Just becasue they haven't seen any yet doesn't mean there doesn't exist any type of evidence that would convince them. Maybe, as you say, they do believe that there is no evidence possible, but that would be an answer to my question. So my question isn't flawed and still stands.

This is a very important statement, and is basically where I stand. I think it's quite possible that evidence exists for some sort of god. Just because said evidence has not yet been discovered or brought forth does not rule out the possibility. The fact remains that this evidence has not yet been discovered, though. I cannot believe something based solely on the possibility of its existence.

Think Russel's Teapot. Suppose I were to tell you that a teapot could be found in an elliptical orbit around the Sun. You have a right to doubt my assertion, as I can offer you no evidence in support of said teapot. Would it be your job to prove me wrong, or else be forced to accept the hypothesis? No--the burden of proof is on the party offering the claim. You have no reason to accept the idea until I provide you with reasoned arguments and evidence for it.
 
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Yekcidmij

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This is a very important statement, and is basically where I stand. I think it's quite possible that evidence exists for some sort of god. Just because said evidence has not yet been discovered or brought forth does not rule out the possibility. The fact remains that this evidence has not yet been discovered, though. I cannot believe something based solely on the possibility of its existence.
Hey, thanks for the response. I see where you're coming from too. It sounds like you are coming more from the mind-set of "I dont really know" rather than saying "God doesn't exist", which is fine, but it sounds more agnostic than atheist. I, for one, do think there have been some very good reasons put out on God's existence.

No--the burden of proof is on the party offering the claim. You have no reason to accept the idea until I provide you with reasoned arguments and evidence for it.

Oh, I agree, and like I said, there have been some good reasons and arguments put out there.


Have a good one.
 
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Hey, thanks for the response. I see where you're coming from too. It sounds like you are coming more from the mind-set of "I dont really know" rather than saying "God doesn't exist", which is fine, but it sounds more agnostic than atheist. I, for one, do think there have been some very good reasons put out on God's existence.



Oh, I agree, and like I said, there have been some good reasons and arguments put out there.


Have a good one.


Technically speaking, all agnostics are atheists. It's hard to have belief in a god that you either don't know about or don't think it's possible to know about. Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods--though many atheists do say that they believe god certainly doesn't exist. It's person by person, really. Just like the teapot--most people would be considered "atheists" when it comes to teapot beliefs, even if they admit that it’s possible there's a teapot out there unaccounted for. Either way, there is no god in which I place any faith or belief, and that is the definition of atheism as I can see it.
 
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DancingwiththeAngels

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LOL. No. Or, your idea of personal identity is drastically different from mine.

The clones are just copies of the dead person, but not the dead person. The dead person could not have the experiences of his clone(s) could he?

And unless you bring in memory et al implants, a clone is just identical DNA. Are identical twins the same person?


good point.
 
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français

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What kind of evidence do you need in order to believe in God?

Good question. At the same time though, it is sort of complicated to explain.

Let us just say this..

Ok, I don't believe in monsters. Neither do you I am sure. Why don't we believe in them? Because we have never seen them. We have no proof of them.

Same with ghosts. Now the ghost issue is interesting though.
I do not believe in ghosts. In fact, scientists have debunked ghosts over and over again.. If one thinks this or that is haunted, a skeptic may go to the place.. and there has not been one place that I know of where a scientist has not been able to explain it!

Yet there are some people who claim to have seen ghosts. And even though I disagree with them and I think if they gave a scientist a few hours, they could find an answer, nevertheless if they usually think they see one, they will believe in ghosts!

But I have never seen a ghost. Nor is there any proof of ghosts. And scientists have been able to explain the events that occur at "haunted houses" and have explained that it really has nothing to do with ghosts.

So I do not believe in god because there is no proof of it. I have never seen a god, never seen a miracle, etc. So I really have no reason to believe in it. I am not going to believe in something i can not see!

And I know... Christianity is about Faith. But that is where Christianity and I depart.

I love Christianity, and I love the Bible. But I do not believe it is a book from a god!

heres one that iv never heard a good answer to. why are you an atheist? have you genuinely looked into religion (not specifically christianity) and found that it held nothing for you? and do you have an argument against christianity other than 'if god is so great why are there wars' ?


I have studied Christianity quite a bit.. At least, I have read the Bible several times, read Ante Nicene Fathers (basically a compilation of all the Church Father writings until 325 AD) and have been open to studying the Bible.I have also studied other religions (namely judaism, islam, hinduism, baha'i, and buddhism.)

While I respect most religions, I just do not find them from god.

I LOVE Christianity. More then you can imagine. The Bible is just such an inspirational book. There have been times when I read the Bible and I just start crying, because it is a book with such beauty.. And to know that this book is 2,000 years old!(At least NT, and the Tanach is even older!!)

I mean there are verses in the Bible that is so ahead of our time that we STILL don't generally follow it! (like not judging, not condemning, loving all, etc.)

However, I have cried while reading Yiddish proverbs before. So it does not make it godly, although it does make it beautiful :)
 
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andross77

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français;40462821 said:
Good question. At the same time though, it is sort of complicated to explain.

Let us just say this..

Ok, I don't believe in monsters. Neither do you I am sure. Why don't we believe in them? Because we have never seen them. We have no proof of them.

Same with ghosts. Now the ghost issue is interesting though.
I do not believe in ghosts. In fact, scientists have debunked ghosts over and over again.. If one thinks this or that is haunted, a skeptic may go to the place.. and there has not been one place that I know of where a scientist has not been able to explain it!

Yet there are some people who claim to have seen ghosts. And even though I disagree with them and I think if they gave a scientist a few hours, they could find an answer, nevertheless if they usually think they see one, they will believe in ghosts!

But I have never seen a ghost. Nor is there any proof of ghosts. And scientists have been able to explain the events that occur at "haunted houses" and have explained that it really has nothing to do with ghosts.

So I do not believe in god because there is no proof of it. I have never seen a god, never seen a miracle, etc. So I really have no reason to believe in it. I am not going to believe in something i can not see!

And I know... Christianity is about Faith. But that is where Christianity and I depart.

I love Christianity, and I love the Bible. But I do not believe it is a book from a god!




I have studied Christianity quite a bit.. At least, I have read the Bible several times, read Ante Nicene Fathers (basically a compilation of all the Church Father writings until 325 AD) and have been open to studying the Bible.I have also studied other religions (namely judaism, islam, hinduism, baha'i, and buddhism.)

While I respect most religions, I just do not find them from god.

I LOVE Christianity. More then you can imagine. The Bible is just such an inspirational book. There have been times when I read the Bible and I just start crying, because it is a book with such beauty.. And to know that this book is 2,000 years old!(At least NT, and the Tanach is even older!!)

I mean there are verses in the Bible that is so ahead of our time that we STILL don't generally follow it! (like not judging, not condemning, loving all, etc.)

However, I have cried while reading Yiddish proverbs before. So it does not make it godly, although it does make it beautiful :)


how sad :(
 
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Yekcidmij

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français;40462821 said:
So I do not believe in god because there is no proof of it. I have never seen a god, never seen a miracle, etc. So I really have no reason to believe in it. I am not going to believe in something i can not see!


Do you beleive atoms exist? Since the answer is yes, there are things you believe exist but cannot see.
 
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Yekcidmij

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français;40492237 said:
Yes, but we can prove atoms in many ways.


Oh, yes. I should have known better. There are still many beliefs you have that you cannot prove. For one example, can you prove that all of "reality" isn't an illusion and your brain is really in a lab being stimulated by a mad scientist? Maybe your senses are being manipulted by the mad scientist and what you think is real is just an illusion?



There are several more examples too.
 
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Oh, yes. I should have known better. There are still many beliefs you have that you cannot prove. For one example, can you prove that all of "reality" isn't an illusion and your brain is really in a lab being stimulated by a mad scientist? Maybe your senses are being manipulted by the mad scientist and what you think is real is just an illusion?



There are several more examples too.

There is a teapot in an elliptical orbit around the Sun. We cannot observe it by any means that we yet have, because it's incredibly small and very far away. Prove me wrong, or else you have no other choice but to believe.

See how crazy that sounds? It isn’t your job to prove me wrong, but for me to show you that my claim is true. If I cannot do that, why should I be surprised that you don’t believe me?
 
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Mjallhvit

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I have a couple of questions, one atheist to another.
1. Do you accept/are you familiar with the "Non-Cognitive" argument against the existence of god? This is the argument that says, "God's attributes individually are nonsense, together they are nonsense on stilts" more or less. I think it is much more compelling and to-the-point than arguments based on epistemological arguments. It also neatly deals with the assertion that god cannot be said NOT to exist, as 'god' can not exist if 'god' is nothing but a sound.
2. Do you believe in any morality or ethics which can be used argumentatively? What I mean is, do you think that there are any 'absolute' moral or ethical statements you can make that do not rely on emotion or consequentialism? I do not!
Thanks, I hope my English is not too confusing for you :)
 
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Ephesians4

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Empirical evidence is the best we have to go by, though.
And yes, wind is very measurable by empirical means. One can measure speed, temperature, direction and quantity of air being moved. All you need is a wind tunnel, if you want to make a quantitative experiment.
But what if empirical evidence is not all there is?

When you were a Christian, did you ever feel the presence of God? Did you ever feel that He was providing for you or loved you?

Do you ever feel any feelings of guilt or sadness that you may be wrong and have turned away from the one true God?

Something to read and keep close to you: The Parable of the Lost Son (Luke 15:11-32)

11Jesus continued: "There was a man who had two sons. 12The younger one said to his father, 'Father, give me my share of the estate.' So he divided his property between them.

13"Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17"When he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.' 20So he got up and went to his father.

"But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21"The son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.[a]'

22"But the father said to his servants, 'Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let's have a feast and celebrate. 24For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

25"Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27'Your brother has come,' he replied, 'and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.'

28"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!'

31" 'My son,' the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' "

-------------

The Bible warns, “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.” (Proverbs 14:12)

---------------

1 Corinthians 1:17-27: For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, arecalled:

But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty.

----------------------------------------------------
"Just because there are certain things you cannot see or understand does not mean they are not true."
----------------------------------------------------
"The wise do not put faith in their own wisdom but only in the wisdom of God, who sees and knows more than even the wisest ever could."
----------------------------------------------------
 
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Mjallhvit

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Empirical evidence ISN'T all there is. One can also deal with concepts via deductive logic, and this is a far superior method in my opinion; it makes pretty much the rest of the debates moot.
The deductive argument can, if nothing else, limit what is possible and tell you whether a word/concept is meaningful or nonsensical. It can be used to find whether a concept is neccesarrily true or false.
The only part you need know aside, either empirically or by apriori reasoning, is whether your initial premises are true.
In the opinion of many logicians and philosophers, and myself the attributes of god (omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) are themselves incoherent and further incoherency arises with their interactions. The supernatural, of which god must be unless he is controlled by physics, is also nonexistent by definition.
I think it can be said that debates about god can never exist, because there is no cognitive meaning nor any valid alternative to reason for gaining information.
 
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andross77

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Empirical evidence ISN'T all there is. One can also deal with concepts via deductive logic, and this is a far superior method in my opinion; it makes pretty much the rest of the debates moot.
The deductive argument can, if nothing else, limit what is possible and tell you whether a word/concept is meaningful or nonsensical. It can be used to find whether a concept is neccesarrily true or false.
The only part you need know aside, either empirically or by apriori reasoning, is whether your initial premises are true.
In the opinion of many logicians and philosophers, and myself the attributes of god (omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) are themselves incoherent and further incoherency arises with their interactions. The supernatural, of which god must be unless he is controlled by physics, is also nonexistent by definition.
I think it can be said that debates about god can never exist, because there is no cognitive meaning nor any valid alternative to reason for gaining information.

Your high intellect is making you miss the Kingdom of God :( It's sad you have no room for the supernatural, spiritual realm or things you can't see and logicaly deduce. Submit your mind to God and He will add wisdom to your knowledge.
 
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Blackguard_

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The supernatural, of which god must be unless he is controlled by physics, is also nonexistent by definition.
Uhh, the claim "only Materialist Patternism exists"(which I take it you base this on) does not mean the supernatural does not exist "by definition", it's a claim about what exists, not a claim on the defintion of "to exist".

Edit: unless you're arguing semantics I guess.:doh:
 
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Your high intellect is making you miss the Kingdom of God :( It's sad you have no room for the supernatural, spiritual realm or things you can see and logicaly deduce. Submit your mind to God and He will add wisdom to your knowledge.

Your post brings an important point to mind. One cannot choose to believe in something. Phrases like the ones you use along with popular ones like "take a leap of faith" mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't already believe, because these are not conscious choices or decisions. Beliefs are consequences of our experience, not choices.

I would like to ask you to submit your mind to Ahuramazda and let him teach you. It didn't work, did it? You aren’t believing hard enough.
 
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Blackguard_

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Phrases like the ones you use along with popular ones like "take a leap of faith" mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't already believe,


Yeah, how can you submit to something you don't beleive exists?:scratch: It's putting the cart before the horse.
 
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Ephesians4

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Empirical evidence ISN'T all there is. One can also deal with concepts via deductive logic, and this is a far superior method in my opinion; it makes pretty much the rest of the debates moot.
The deductive argument can, if nothing else, limit what is possible and tell you whether a word/concept is meaningful or nonsensical. It can be used to find whether a concept is neccesarrily true or false.
The only part you need know aside, either empirically or by apriori reasoning, is whether your initial premises are true.
In the opinion of many logicians and philosophers, and myself the attributes of god (omnipotence, omniscience, etc.) are themselves incoherent and further incoherency arises with their interactions. The supernatural, of which god must be unless he is controlled by physics, is also nonexistent by definition.
I think it can be said that debates about god can never exist, because there is no cognitive meaning nor any valid alternative to reason for gaining information.
Deductive and inductive reasoning are still dependent on reasoning. Reasoning is only valid if you reason without flaw. Furthermore, you must weigh every possible permutation of reality. Can you truly say that you have done that at the age of 18? Can anyone say this? I think not. That's why a measure of faith is involved whichever path you choose -- to believe God or not.

It's not necessary to commit intellectual suicide to believe in God or to be a Christian. Many highly intelligent people (and high IQ, which are not necessarily one and the same) are Christians.

A few good books on this topic are:

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (one-time atheist and Oxford professor; brilliant man & theologian)

A Case for Faith by Lee Strobel (one-time atheist & acclaimed investigative reporter in Chicago)

An interesting web site to read: http://www.probe.org/component/opti...ion,content/task,category/sectionid,10/id,48/

Best of luck on your journey to finding the truth! I hope you find the answers you're looking for here at this site. Have a good day!
 
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Blackguard_

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Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (one-time atheist and Oxford professor; brilliant man & theologian)

Brilliant author, (The Screwtape Letters is one of the best books ever IMHO), but Mere Christianity is a scratching post to the Anti-Apologists in GA.

I can't comment on the Strobel book.

It's not necessary to commit intellectual suicide to believe in God or to be a Christian. Many highly intelligent people (and high IQ, which are not necessarily one and the same) are Christians.

This is true though. :thumbsup:
 
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