Ask a Presbyterian

[LiturgyInDMinor]

I believe, if this hasn't been touched upon yet...the PCA emphasizes evangelicalism moreso than the OPC.
I could be wrong.

 

[Anoetos]

Well, first of all, I think you mean "evangelism" because it would be hard to say that either of these two great churches were more "evangelical" than the other.

That said, it is true that the PCA does far more church planting and missionary work than the OPC, but then a great deal of that has to do with the size of the PCA.

I would say that, proportionally, they are equally evangelistic, but that because the PCA is so much larger it does more evangelism in terms of absolute quantity.

 

[kenrapoza]

I know this doesn't add any useful information to the discussion, but:

I've recently come to know an OPC Pastor right in my hometown. He is the pastor of a very small congregation (like 12!) that is primarily elderly. The congregation broke off from the local PCUSA church during the modernist controversy a long time ago and has struggled ever since. Although I am not a member of the OPC, I thank God for this man who faithfully preaches the gospel and labors in obscurity. As far as I know, it is the only reformed church in this city, and I pray earnestly that God grows this congregation and the reformed witness here is strengthened.

I actually brought my mother there a while ago from her/our old non-denominational evangelical church, and she much prefers it. She appreciates the reverent worship without all the "theatrics". She now attends regularly. I'm hoping to meet others in the area that I can introduce to this OPC congregation (even though I go to a different church where I am quite "plugged in"). This pastor has an "evanglistic spirit" but does not compromise on the purity of the church's faith and practice in order to get people in the door; much like my own dear PCA congregation.

One thing I do notice about this particular OPC congregation (and please let me know if this is typical) is that it has a very "old-fashioned traditional" feel to the service. Let me explain what I mean. Some evangelicals will look at the worship of my PCA congregation and see it as "traditional", but it really isn't. It is covenant renewal and we don't do anything for the sake of "tradition" but out of conviction and law/gospel distinctions. Our liturgy is actually patterned after Calvin's order of worship in Geneva, since we hold to similar convictions. But the OPC congregation, for example, has a blaring organ during worship that kind of takes over.

Sorry for the rambling with no point, this isn't like me.

 

[Anoetos]

That probably has more to do with the culture in that particular congregation.

In my own church we use only a piano, though we did have a young man from the church play the violin beautifully on Good Friday.

The OPC is probably still narrower than the PCA in practice when it comes to "doing church" generally.

I was part of a pre-church plant Bible Study with the PCA and I got the impression that the local Presbytery was more concerned with numbers than with establishing a church be it ever so small. There was a lot of talk about what we could do to make the church more palatable to the people in the local area. Those were never the exact words used, but that was the tenor.

We were entirely on our own and were told, essentially, that we could expect no help from the denomination until we reached a significant number of regular attendees. Now, I understand that this is a matter of some practicality, but in my OPC of which I am a charter member, things were done very differently: elders were "borrowed" from a nearby congregation and we were carried by the denomination and that "sponsoring" congregation for quite some time until we were on our feet so to speak.

My impression was of a more human, more church conscious, less church-growth oriented care from the Presbytery and denomination.

And that is the most criticism you will hear from me of the PCA. I fully admit that it is a subjective and anecdotal account of things I perceived and should be taken as such. Generally speaking, my respect for the PCA is immense.

 

[kenrapoza]

That probably has more to do with the culture in that particular congregation.

In my own church we use only a piano, though we did have a young man from the church play the violin beautifully on Good Friday.

The OPC is probably still narrower than the PCA in practice when it comes to "doing church" generally.

I was part of a pre-church plant Bible Study with the PCA and I got the impression that the local Presbytery was more concerned with numbers than with establishing a church be it ever so small. There was a lot of talk about what we could do to make the church more palatable to the people in the local area. Those were never the exact words used, but that was the tenor.

We were entirely on our own and were told, essentially, that we could expect no help from the denomination until we reached a significant number of regular attendees. Now, I understand that this is a matter of some practicality, but in my OPC of which I am a charter member, things were done very differently: elders were "borrowed" from a nearby congregation and we were carried by the denomination and that "sponsoring" congregation for quite some time until we were on our feet so to speak.

My impression was of a more human, more church conscious, less church-growth oriented care from the Presbytery and denomination.

And that is the most criticism you will hear from me of the PCA. I fully admit that it is a subjective and anecdotal account of things I perceived and should be taken as such. Generally speaking, my respect for the PCA is immense.

That's a very interesting experience you had, and it obviously does not speak well of the presbytery! Oddly enough, our church plant was very different. We seemed to have full support all the way through the process, even though we're still small.

 

[hedrick]

I'd like to comment on some questions here from a PCUSA point of view.

I think there's a lot of misinformation about the PCUSA. We don't tend to use creeds legalistically, but pastors and the lay people who are involved in theology take them seriously. (Perhaps a difference is that we have lay people who aren't into theology, but who are more focused on service. I suspect if you were honest, you'd find the same.) Our pastor (who is pretty liberal) studies Calvin regularly, and you can tell it in his sermons. The worst press tends to come from a few nutcases, whose influence is overemphasized by some people who would like to get rid of them (not that i'd object).

The PCUSA churches that I know of tend to follow the lectionary, as a discipline to make sure that preaching takes in the whole content of Scripture, and not just what the pastor happens to like. Preaching is normally Scriptural. Indeed that's the main reason that I attend PCUSA churches rather than churches of other liberal denominations.

I don't see the problem with communion with the ELCA. Even fairly conservative Presbyterians such as Horton see the Lutherans and Reformed as follow Reformation churches. While I do prefer Reformed theology, I think the differences have been exaggerated because of the needs of groups to justify their separateness. Note that full communion is with the RCA, UCC, and ELCA, who are Reformed or Lutheran. There are other bilateral relationships that aren't full communion.

The PCUSA tends to avoid rhetoric like "anti-Christ" when speaking of Catholics. There's just no purpose. There are many Christians in the RCC, and areas where it makes sense to cooperate with them. Our congregation (which is in New Jersey) has many former Catholics, and a few of our kids attend Catholic schools. We are well aware of the differences. Our people are Presbyterians for a reason. But we see no reason to throw it in anyone's face.

 

[Nemo Neem]

What is a Presbyterian's view on angels? In some instances, I have seen where most don't believe in them, or know they exist, but doubt the existence of guardian angels. I believe in guardian angels.

 

[kenrapoza]

We would certainly affirm that the Bible is very clear about the existence of angels. They are a part of God's created order and are separate beings from humankind. As far as guardian angels go, there are some verses that can be read that way, but I wouldn't want to be dogmatic about it.

 

[AMR]

Yes, there are verses that suggest angels watch over believers: Ps. 34:7; 91:11.

Berkhof writes:

The idea that some of them serve as guardians of individual believers finds no support in Scripture. The statement in Matt. 18:10 is too general to prove the point, though it seems to indicate that there is a group of angels who are particularly charged with the care of the little ones. Neither is it proved by Acts 12:15, for this passage merely goes to show that there were some even among the disciples of that early day who believed in guardian angels.

AMR

 

[kenrapoza]

Also, now that "Ask A Presbyterian" is a subforum, feel free to start new threads. You don't have to continue this one if it's too convoluted.

 

[General Mung Beans]

Does the Presbyterian Church in America include a large amount of Korean churches. According to the PCA website one of the largest churches, Sa Rang Community Church is affiliated with the PCA.

 

[kenrapoza]

There are definitely Korean churches within the PCA, but I honestly have no idea how many. One thing I wish is that the PCA were more racially integrated than it currently is.

Also, there is a Korean Presbyterian denomination, and they're even affiliated with NAPARC. They are the Korean American Presbyterian Church ¹ÌÁÖÇÑÀο¹¼ö±³Àå·Îȸ | Korean American Presbyterian Church

 

[General Mung Beans]

There are definitely Korean churches within the PCA, but I honestly have no idea how many. One thing I wish is that the PCA were more racially integrated than it currently is.

Also, there is a Korean Presbyterian denomination, and they're even affiliated with NAPARC. They are the Korean American Presbyterian Church ¹ÌÁÖÇÑÀο¹¼ö±³Àå·Îȸ | Korean American Presbyterian Church

Well Koreans tend to be less assimiliated into American society as fairly new immigrant groups. so that may be a reason.

 

[kenrapoza]

True, but I'm speaking a little more generally. In other words, I wish there were more racial integration all across the board in the PCA, including those who are black, Asian, hispanic, etc...

 

[General Mung Beans]

True, but I'm speaking a little more generally. In other words, I wish there were more racial integration all across the board in the PCA, including those who are black, Asian, hispanic, etc...

I agree. There was an article in Time about this a few months ago actually.

 

[Evenstar253]

True, but I'm speaking a little more generally. In other words, I wish there were more racial integration all across the board in the PCA, including those who are black, Asian, hispanic, etc...

Ditto for the PC(USA). I completely agree with whoever said that Sunday mornings are the most segregated time of the week in America. The PC(USA) probably has more racial diversity than the PCA, but that's almost certainly due to sheer size, not anything the PCA's doing wrong. I think the PC(USA) is more diverse in inner-city churches, but I haven't seen a ton of evidence for diversity in the suburbs. For the longest time, there were only about two or three black families and I think some Asians who regularly attended my decently sized suburban church. (I'm pretty sure there are more now, but I haven't been back very often since I moved further away.) I'm really not sure how to change this, since especially for black Americans, church is very much a cultural institution, more so than for whites nowadays, and of course we don't want to push diversity at the expense of weakening this institution. I hope that minorities who do come to traditionally white churches feel welcomed, but I can imagine that walking into a sea of white faces has to feel at least somewhat unsettling.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Hey guys. I have been a member in my OPC church for about 6 months and I have been attending for over a year. I have to admit it's a bit discomforting seeing the sea of white faces. Not to say I am not scared of white people, my gf is white and so is most of her family. I just wish for a little more diversity. I come from Calvary Chapel where there is a multitude of people from diverse backgrounds, it's a huge change.

 

[Willtor]

Hey guys. I have been a member in my OPC church for about 6 months and I have been attending for over a year. I have to admit it's a bit discomforting seeing the sea of white faces. Not to say I am not scared of white people, my gf is white and so is most of her family. I just wish for a little more diversity. I come from Calvary Chapel where there is a multitude of people from diverse backgrounds, it's a huge change.

Haha! That's exactly how I felt when I finished grad school and moved back to Boston, leaving my Chinese church and joining an Anglican church... and I'm white!

So no worries.

 

[mannysee]

I'm thinking about the baptist / presbyterian argument concerning congregational autonomy vs the presbyterian position.Could someone direct me toward a good article or two about which position and why / comparing the two arguments ?I suppose beginning with the presbyterian argument.thanks

 

[JohnKnox87]

Hello, do most presbyterian churches practice closed communion still? Or do some presbyterians preactice an open table? Thanks