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LiturgyInDMinor

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Tell her to come on in. ;)
She's a female pastor, but a presbyterian nonetheless(I'm sure you know the debate on this subject!!!)...in my book that'll make for some good debate...but as far as I'm concerned...she's welcome in this new presby forum.

I pushed for this forum...not just for the PCA and OPC.....it's for all that hold to presbyterianism IMHO.

Thanks for listening.
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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From the Westminster Larger Catechism (Scripture references omitted):
"The fourth commandment requires of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he has appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, and in the New Testament called the Lord's day.

The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to be taken up in works of necessity and mercy[Matthew 12:1-13]) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.

The charge of keeping the sabbath is more specially directed to governors of families, and other superiors, because they are bound not only to keep it themselves, but to see that it be observed by all those that are under their charge; and because they are prone ofttimes to hinder them by employments of their own.

The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.

The reasons annexed to the fourth commandment, the more to enforce it, are taken from the equity of it, God allowing us six days of seven for our own affairs, and reserving but one for himself, in these words, Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: from God's challenging a special propriety in that day, The seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: from the example of God, who in six days made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: and from that blessing which God put upon that day, not only in sanctifying it to be a day for his service, but in ordaining it to be a means of blessing to us in our sanctifying it;Wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restrains our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it comes but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it; and that Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety."
AMR

In all honestly I've never really thought about what has been said in this excerpt from the WLC.
It's very interesting and humbling.

I need to get more serious about this type of stuff.

I wish mowing the lawn counted in this case. ;)

Great post..I have read the shorter catechism a couple of times...but not the Larger yet.
 
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breanne

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Thank you for that information. It definitely clarifies the view on the Sabbath. I am still a bit confused as to the Scriptural support in light of the passages I previously mentioned. Am I correct then to say that Presbyterians consider part of the Mosaic covenant (The Ten Commandments) binding on Christians today? If so what Bible support do they give for that?

This view of the Mosaic Law is very different from other Christian denominations I have studied thus far.

Thank you!
Bree
 
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AMR

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Thank you for that information. It definitely clarifies the view on the Sabbath. I am still a bit confused as to the Scriptural support in light of the passages I previously mentioned. Am I correct then to say that Presbyterians consider part of the Mosaic covenant (The Ten Commandments) binding on Christians today? If so what Bible support do they give for that?

This view of the Mosaic Law is very different from other Christian denominations I have studied thus far.

Thank you!
Bree
Prebyterians recognize two covenants: works and grace. See questions 1-50 of the WLC.

To your specific question, I would refer you questions 91-150 of the WLC that was previously linked in my response above.

AMR
 
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kenrapoza

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I think the PCUSA tends to legislate fairly liberally. But I don't think this reflects the views of most PCUSA churches. I think most of the Churches tend to be fairly orthodox. My wife is a PCUSA pastor and her notion is that many of the individual churches don't see the decisions as having a lot of bearing on them -- and those that do tend to leave.

That's very interesting! For me, it's good to hear that the average congregation takes the Word more seriously than the leadership. I've heard that is typically the case with the liberal denominations, that the laity are considerably more conservative than the clergy. I noticed that you're in Cambridge, does your wife pastor a church here in Mass?
 
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kenrapoza

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Thank you for that information. It definitely clarifies the view on the Sabbath. I am still a bit confused as to the Scriptural support in light of the passages I previously mentioned. Am I correct then to say that Presbyterians consider part of the Mosaic covenant (The Ten Commandments) binding on Christians today? If so what Bible support do they give for that?

This view of the Mosaic Law is very different from other Christian denominations I have studied thus far.

Thank you!
Bree

Hi Breanne,

I apologize that I won't be able to take the time to explain this that I should, it's actually getting close to my bedtime! Anyways, you are correct in the sense that Presbyterians (and all reformed for that matter) do hold the decalogue to be binding on Christians. For example, we still believe that God's people should not be murdering and committing adultery!

The reason for this is that the ten commandments are not merely something in the Mosaic economy, but are the actual summation of God's moral law. If you look through the ten commandments you will readily see that those things would be wrong at any time in history. They are anchored in the moral character of God and are examples of what it means to follow God's law. The reformed (and by extension, Presbyterians) see this as essentially a republication of the covenant of works given to Adam. It was expanded upon for the circumstances of the nation of Israel as a typological assembly of God's people. But, for example, we see from the episode of Cain and Abel that it was wrong for Cain to murder Abel. He broke one of the commandments, God's moral law. It was an attack on the very character of God. The same is true for Christian today.
 
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breanne

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Thank you for your response. My view as I have studied Scripture has been that those things which are restated in the New Testament by Christ and the apostles are binding on Christians today, which is somewhat different than Presbyterians. As far as I can tell we are not told which laws were given to Adam and which were new to the Isrealites. Adam most certainly had God's eternal,moral commands, but I wouldn't necessarily say that the 10 Commandments are one and the same as that. Again though, thank you for your response. I can see that on this issue I disagree too strongly with Presbyterians to search out a Presbyterian church.
 
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Willtor

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That's very interesting! For me, it's good to hear that the average congregation takes the Word more seriously than the leadership. I've heard that is typically the case with the liberal denominations, that the laity are considerably more conservative than the clergy. I noticed that you're in Cambridge, does your wife pastor a church here in Mass?

Nope. She was in Mississippi until shortly before we got married. PCUSA isn't big in the north-east, though. I guess this is Congregational territory. Unfortunately, economy being what it is, it's been hard to find a position. We've been attending the church I was attending before we got married: Christ Church of Hamilton and Wenham (Episcopal). I don't know where you are in Massachusetts, but it's a great church if you ever find yourself on the north shore for a weekend. We sing the liturgy. :) Unfortunately, it's in the process of dividing -- the Episcopal Church is in a pretty broken state. Part of Christ Church is leaving TEC but wants to remain connected to the worldwide Anglican Communion. The other part wants to stay with TEC and build bridges and try to remain a center of orthodoxy within that church.

Anyway, that's neither here nor there for an "Ask a Presbyterian" thread. But the short answer is, no, she isn't pastoring a church, right now. We're in the process of moving up to Nashua, NH, where my job moved -- so maybe there will be something up there.
 
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breanne

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Thank you for the link. I respect the idea that we as Christian's should have a rhythm to our week, however I can still find no Biblical basis for a replacement of the Saturday Sabbath given to Israel with Sunday. Further I feel that Hebrews is very clear that a new covenant is in place and with that comes a change of the law. If one is to make a case for the continuance of the Sabbath, then I would ask how many in your congregation have been punished accordingly for their failure to keep it by driving to church on Sunday? The commands related to the Sabbath in Exodus and Numbers are quite clear. I don't really want to debate the Sabbath issue, just wanted to understand the Presbyterian view. I would highly recommend the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to anyone looking to study the subject further. Thank you again for the link =)
 
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kenrapoza

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Thank you for the link. I respect the idea that we as Christian's should have a rhythm to our week, however I can still find no Biblical basis for a replacement of the Saturday Sabbath given to Israel with Sunday. Further I feel that Hebrews is very clear that a new covenant is in place and with that comes a change of the law. If one is to make a case for the continuance of the Sabbath, then I would ask how many in your congregation have been punished accordingly for their failure to keep it by driving to church on Sunday? The commands related to the Sabbath in Exodus and Numbers are quite clear. I don't really want to debate the Sabbath issue, just wanted to understand the Presbyterian view. I would highly recommend the book Sabbath in Christ by Dale Ratzlaff to anyone looking to study the subject further. Thank you again for the link =)

Hi Breanne,

I certainly respect your disagreement with the Presbyterians, but I think our discussion may have given you the wrong impression about the reformed position on the Sabbath. Ultimately the Sabbath is typological and points to the rest we have in Christ. Jesus is, in a real sense, the fulfillment of the Sabbath. He gives us rest, His burden is light, and ultimately He will bring us into eternal rest.

We are Christians, not Jews, and we don't hold to the Old Covenant Sabbath. As Christians we are to recognize Christ in the Sabbath and not be slavishly bound to the types and shadows of the OT's ceremonial law. I think Paul makes this point very clear, and so does the passage you've been alluding to in Hebrews. Keeping the Sabbath laws in the Old Covenant manner would be akin to offering up sacrifices and burnt offerings on the altar. Returning to the types and shadows when we have the reality in Christ would be an abomination. Presbyterians don't believe we should be stoning people for driving to church, but we do believe that all people (not just Christians) are bound to God's moral law and are not free to break that law as we see fit.

I hope this might clear up some apparent confusion. We may have been "talking past each other." Such is the nature of online forums! :)
 
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breanne

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I guess I'm still confused...if you believe Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of the Sabbath, then why is keeping the Sabbath still referenced in the confessions? Are you saying that a Christian doesn't need to obey the commands regarding the Sabbath except the forth commandment? If so on what basis does the denomination make that distinction?

Breanne
 
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TheCatholic

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Got a question about Presbyterianism? Ask away and I am confident someone here will have the answer for you. As we start to populate this forum with discussion topics some answers will probably be pointers to other discussion threads in this forum.

AMR

I have a question to ask a Presbyterian:

You you guys still believe the pope is the antichrist?
 
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AndOne

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I have a question to ask a Presbyterian:

You you guys still believe the pope is the antichrist?

Can't speak for them - but I do....

Well maybe not THE antichrist - but he is an antichrist...
 
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TheCatholic

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I have a question to ask a Presbyterian:
You you guys still believe the pope is the antichrist?
Can't speak for them - but I do....
Well maybe not THE antichrist - but he is an antichrist...
I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe you can discuss that over in General Theology.


As a presbyterian...I do not.
Thank you for your answer. Now, is that a personal opinion or the official Presbyterian position?
 
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LiturgyInDMinor

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I'm sorry to hear that. Maybe you can discuss that over in General Theology.



Thank you for your answer. Now, is that a personal opinion or the official Presbyterian position?

That is my personal opinion, and to add I have yet to find any such thinking officially published by the PCA in regards to the Roman Pontiff being Antichrist. :) I'll keep looking though. ;)
 
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AMR

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That is my personal opinion, and to add I have yet to find any such thinking officially published by the PCA in regards to the Roman Pontiff being Antichrist. :) I'll keep looking though. ;)
Please see the PCA statement here, to wit:

"The Presbyterian Church in America received the same Confession and Catechisms as those that were adopted by the first American Presbyterian Assembly of 1789, with two minor exceptions, namely, the deletion of strictures against marrying one's wife's kindred (XXIV,4), and the reference to the Pope as the antichrist (XXV,6)."

Key point is that while the PCA rejects identification of "the" antichrist, there is nothing from preventing a member from holding that the pontiff represents a system of beliefs that is a type of antichrist.

A.A. Hodges' commentary on the exposition of the particular section of the WCF:

"The word 'Antichrist' occurs in the New Testament in 1 John ii. 18, 22; iv. 3; 2 John 7. The coming of the 'man of sin', the 'son of perdition', is predicted in 2 Thess. ii. 3, 4. Interpreters have differed as to whether these phrases were intended to designate a personal opponent of the Lord, or principles and systems antagonistic to him and his cause. The authors of our Confession can hardly have intended to declare that each individual Pope of the long succession is the personal Antichrist, and they probably meant that the Papal system is in spirit, form, and effect, wholly antichristian, and that it marked a defection from apostolical Christianity foreseen and foretold in Scripture. All of which was true in their day, and is true in ours. We have need, however, to remember that as the forms of evil change, and the complications of the kingdom of Christ with that of Satan vary with the progress of events, 'even now are there many Antichrists'. 1 John ii. 18."

AMR
 
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