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Ask a physicist anything.

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Jazmyn

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Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson goes on a camping trip. After a good dinner and a bottle of wine, they retire for the night, and go to sleep. Some hours later, Holmes wakes up and nudges his faithful friend.

"Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."

"I see millions and millions of stars, Holmes," replies Watson.

"And what do you deduce from that?"

Watson ponders for a minute.

"Well, astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo. Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three.

"Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. Theologically, I can see that God is all powerful and that we are a small and insignificant part of the universe. What does it tell you, Holmes?"

Holmes is silent for a moment. "Watson, you idiot!" he says. "Someone has stolen our tent!"
 
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AV1611VET

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Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson goes on a camping trip. After a good dinner and a bottle of wine, they retire for the night, and go to sleep. Some hours later, Holmes wakes up and nudges his faithful friend.

"Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."

"I see millions and millions of stars, Holmes," replies Watson.

"And what do you deduce from that?"

Watson ponders for a minute.

"Well, astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo. Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three.

"Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. Theologically, I can see that God is all powerful and that we are a small and insignificant part of the universe. What does it tell you, Holmes?"

Holmes is silent for a moment. "Watson, you idiot!" he says. "Someone has stolen our tent!"
^_^ --- that's funny!
 
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Michael

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I agree that it does explain these phenomena. But it is not the best explanation, not by a long shot.

"Best" by who's subjective standards, yours or mine?

We can simply use Occam's razor to eliminate the 'God' hypothesis as the most probable.

Yet you think that string theory survives Occum's razor arguments? Really?

For instance, of two explanations for NDEs (genuine experience of God vs an audio-visual hallucination),

If these experiences were entirely random in nature, and/or the experiences jived with the belief system of the individual at the time, you might make that case. Since there were long term consequences on the individual, including long term changes to the belief systems, it's clear that these individuals did not believe the ND to be any sort of hallucination. What makes you personal subjective opinion better than Jung's opinion when his beliefs are born of experience and an understanding of human psychology, whereas you have never even experienced an NDE to begin with?

Occam's razor favours the latter: we know that the brain is highly susceptible to delusion and hallucination, including self-induced delusion.

Did you even read the Lancet article all the way through? It seems to me that your opinion on this matter is not born of personal experience but upon a "personal belief' that you have about the *many* experiences of others, including professionals trained in psychology. What makes your subjective opinion valid? In many cases the patient was not oxygen deprived nor on drugs of any sort. Jung was a skilled psychologist and his beliefs were born of experience. He even reported to have "new knowledge" from the experience.

We don't have to posit anything new. The God hypothesis, on the other hand, requires us to posit something new: God. So it's not the best theory we have.

The same can be said of "dark energy" and string theory. EM fields cause plasma to "accelerate" just fine. We don't need new forces of nature to explain particle acceleration. Strings don't seem to have any influence on anything so including them in some ancient creation mythos achieves absolutely nothing and "explains" absolutely nothing.

On the other hand, Occam's razor doesn't remove string theory, even though it posits the existence of the 'strings' and is certainly not without its problems.

Oh come now. "God did it" enjoys just as much empirical evidence as your string theory and "God did it" just also happens to be completely congruent with all those other historical tidbits and human experiences. Pure coincidence?

But hold your horses, this isn't a double standard: 'God' is not the 'best we've got' because there are other theories which don't posit anything new

But your "solution" didn't "explain" any of the information in that article and it flies in the face of that article's findings. It's not clear to me that you actually read the entire article if you keep claiming it's a "hallucination" because none of these individuals seem to agree with your assessment and your opinion is not born of experience, but a lack thereof. More convincingly, many of their behavior and beliefs changed dramatically as a result of their conviction in the merits of the experience.

I wasn't aware of any 'theories of creation', at least not in the scientific sense.

Lambda-CDM is in fact a "creation event" since all matter in the universe supposedly came from that singular event.

There are certainly countless myths and legend, and even tentative educated guesses, but we simply don't know anything about how the universe got here. To say there are theories at all is an overstatement.

Well, I tend to agree, but then you still don't seem to be the least bit consistent in they way you are applying your concept of "Occum's razor". The fact you don't posit anything new isn't "automatically" a plus, particularly if your "solution" doesn't jive with the evidence in any way. None of the folks that were interviewed many years later believed this experience to be a "hallucination", nor did Carl Jung. Most of them experienced very significant changes in their long term belief systems (even religions ones) as a result of these experiences. Atheists report these same sorts of experiences and they all seem to share a common theme. Your "explanation" didn't jive with the evidence, it didn't "explain" things like that missing teeth incident (there are many better accounts by the way). It fails to explain why so many people keep have the same type of experience and report meeting their "creator", including atheists.

It seems to me that your application of Occum's razor is utterly arbitrary based on your faulty "assumption" that any sort of an "explanation" is equally valid as any other explanation. Some explanations fit the evidence and some do not. Just because one idea poses nothing new and another does not isn't a logical justification for excluding either theory. Since your theory does nothing to explain the long term changes in the beliefs and behaviors of these individuals and addresses nothing related to the "knowledge gained" from such experience from folks like Jung, it's hard to consider your solution to be much of a solution at all.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Say "silk" five times. Now spell "silk." What do cows drink?
Water ;).

[SIZE=-1]Heisenberg is out for a drive when he's stopped by a traffic cop.

The cop says 'Do you know how fast you were going?'

Heisenberg says 'No, but I know where I am.' [/SIZE]
^_^
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Have you heard of this interview where Roger Penrose says there's something wrong with QM? Any thoughts on it?
He seems to object to its counter-intuitive results, and the fact that it disagrees with relativity. Most physicists acknowledge the discrepancy between the two theories, but consider quantum mechanics to be superior.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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If these experiences were entirely random in nature, and/or the experiences jived with the belief system of the individual at the time, you might make that case. Since there were long term consequences on the individual, including long term changes to the belief systems, it's clear that these individuals did not believe the ND to be any sort of hallucination.
Which hardly proves that they're not.

What makes you personal subjective opinion better than Jung's opinion when his beliefs are born of experience and an understanding of human psychology, whereas you have never even experienced an NDE to begin with?
For the third time: nothing whatsoever. My point was that the 'hallucination' hypothesis is simpler, and therefore more probable, than the 'God' hypothesis.

Did you even read the Lancet article all the way through? It seems to me that your opinion on this matter is not born of personal experience but upon a "personal belief' that you have about the *many* experiences of others, including professionals trained in psychology. What makes your subjective opinion valid? In many cases the patient was not oxygen deprived nor on drugs of any sort. Jung was a skilled psychologist and his beliefs were born of experience. He even reported to have "new knowledge" from the experience.
Yes, I'm sure he did. Now, how does any of that matter to the point I was making?

The same can be said of "dark energy" and string theory. EM fields cause plasma to "accelerate" just fine. We don't need new forces of nature to explain particle acceleration. Strings don't seem to have any influence on anything so including them in some ancient creation mythos achieves absolutely nothing and "explains" absolutely nothing.
String theory actually explains everything, which is part of the problem: no matter what experiment you run, no matter what the outcome, string theory can account for it. The reasons it's untestable isn't that it doesn't makes, but that it makes too many; there's no falsification test.

Oh come now. "God did it" enjoys just as much empirical evidence as your string theory and "God did it" just also happens to be completely congruent with all those other historical tidbits and human experiences. Pure coincidence?
Yes. Like string theory, 'God' is such a vague term that it can be used to explain anything; there's no possible falsification test.

But your "solution" didn't "explain" any of the information in that article and it flies in the face of that article's findings. It's not clear to me that you actually read the entire article if you keep claiming it's a "hallucination" because none of these individuals seem to agree with your assessment and your opinion is not born of experience, but a lack thereof. More convincingly, many of their behavior and beliefs changed dramatically as a result of their conviction in the merits of the experience.
So? If they were hallucinations, I daresay some people would be convinced by them.

Lambda-CDM is in fact a "creation event" since all matter in the universe supposedly came from that singular event.
ΛCDM is a model of the universe, not an explanation for how it got there.

Well, I tend to agree, but then you still don't seem to be the least bit consistent in they way you are applying your concept of "Occum's razor". The fact you don't posit anything new isn't "automatically" a plus, particularly if your "solution" doesn't jive with the evidence in any way.
Yes, it is. All other things being equal, the more parsimonious hpothesis is more probable. Besides, what evidence doesn't string theory 'jive' with?

None of the folks that were interviewed many years later believed this experience to be a "hallucination", nor did Carl Jung. Most of them experienced very significant changes in their long term belief systems (even religions ones) as a result of these experiences. Atheists report these same sorts of experiences and they all seem to share a common theme. Your "explanation" didn't jive with the evidence, it didn't "explain" things like that missing teeth incident (there are many better accounts by the way). It fails to explain why so many people keep have the same type of experience and report meeting their "creator", including atheists.
On the contrary, the ubiquity of the human brain means they do the same thing in the same set of circumstances. It is entirely possible that NDEs result from the random firing of a particular cluster of neurones, making the individual believe they can see an ill-defined point of light, and are in the presence of someone else (given the fundamental importance of these two aspects of our normal lives, it's not unsurprising that these two symptoms would be manifested). That people attribute this presence to God is a testament urban legends: "Everyone else sees God during an NDE, so that must be what I saw as well!".

At the end of the day, you have no real reason to suppose that the experiences of these individuals were genuine. You simply assert that, because lots of people have these experiences, they must be true.

It seems to me that your application of Occum's razor is utterly arbitrary based on your faulty "assumption" that any sort of an "explanation" is equally valid as any other explanation.
I made it quite clear that the absence of evidence allowed us to use Occam's razor.

Some explanations fit the evidence and some do not. Just because one idea poses nothing new and another does not isn't a logical justification for excluding either theory.
I never excluded anything. We were discussing my claim that it's the best we've got, not that it's all we've got.

Since your theory does nothing to explain the long term changes in the beliefs and behaviors of these individuals and addresses nothing related to the "knowledge gained" from such experience from folks like Jung, it's hard to consider your solution to be much of a solution at all.
You asked for my opinion, and I gave it. Whether you accept my explanation or not is of no concern to me.
 
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Chesterton

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He seems to object to its counter-intuitive results, and the fact that it disagrees with relativity. Most physicists acknowledge the discrepancy between the two theories, but consider quantum mechanics to be superior.

It seems he's saying more than that though, that there's something wrong with QM itself. I know you can say that almost all scientific discoveries or insights have been counter-intuitive and unexpected, but they fit into common sense after we discover the facts, and QM doesn't. The facts themselves are what make it literally non-sensical. So what about the general point Penrose makes, that a scientific explanation should make sense to the human mind, or else it's not really an explanation?
 
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Belk

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[SIZE=-1]Heisenberg is out for a drive when he's stopped by a traffic cop.

The cop says 'Do you know how fast you were going?'

Heisenberg says 'No, but I know where I am.' [/SIZE]

Descarte is sitting in a bar having a beer and discussing philosophy with some of the other patrons. As the discussion is starting to get heated Descartes finishes his beer and slams his glass down on the bar. The bartender comes down and asks "You want another one?". Descartes ponders for a moment, says "I think not", and promptly disappears.
 
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AV1611VET

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You only have a match when you enter a dark and cold room. You come across an oil lamp, an oil heater, and a candle. Which do you light first?

images
 
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AV1611VET

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Descarte is sitting in a bar having a beer and discussing philosophy with some of the other patrons. As the discussion is starting to get heated Descartes finishes his beer and slams his glass down on the bar. The bartender comes down and asks "You want another one?". Descartes ponders for a moment, says "I think not", and promptly disappears.

^_^
 
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Cabal

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Descarte is sitting in a bar having a beer and discussing philosophy with some of the other patrons. As the discussion is starting to get heated Descartes finishes his beer and slams his glass down on the bar. The bartender comes down and asks "You want another one?". Descartes ponders for a moment, says "I think not", and promptly disappears.

An Englishman, an Irishman, and a Scotsman walk into a bar.

The bartender sees them and says "Lads, is this a joke?"
 
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AV1611VET

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"An Englishman, an Irishman, and a Scotsman walk into a bar" is a common start to quite a few jokes over here.
I still don't get it?

Are they incompatible or something?

ETA: Nevermind --- now I get it. "Is this a joke" --- ^_^

(Slow today.)
 
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