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Ask a physicist anything. (7)

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Wiccan_Child

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Classical explanation would be OK, if you gave the answer of the question "what defines epsilon and mu for glass". Thus I'm going to ask what kind of interaction is taking place. Or IOW, what slows down a particular photon. Is, what exits the glass, the same photon that entered the glass or another photon? If it is not, then what absorbed it and reemitted it? And what remembered the photons original quantum state and reemitted it in the same quantum state? Also, if the photon is absorbed how it happens that the reemitted photon is still entangled with another photon? I think they measured entangled photons while forcing them to travel long fiber-optical channel.
The atoms that make up the glass absorb and reemit the photon, with a slight delay between. This delay manifests as a 'slowing down' of the photon - the photon isn't slowed, it's just taking a pit-stop at any atom that absorbs it.

The photon is reemitted at the same energy as before because the inert atom is excited by that exact amount of energy, so to go back to its boring ground state it needs to reemit that same amount of energy. The 'information' is stored in the excited photons.

This isn't always the case, however. Photons can be emitted at lower or even higher wavelengths than when they were absorbed; this is known as fluorescence, and is why UV light can make something glow in the visible range.
 
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Naraoia

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This isn't always the case, however. Photons can be emitted at lower or even higher wavelengths than when they were absorbed; this is known as fluorescence, and is why UV light can make something glow in the visible range.
How do you go to lower wavelength? Absorb more than one photon, then spit out one with the combined energies?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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How do you go to lower wavelength? Absorb more than one photon, then spit out one with the combined energies?
That's one way to do it. Any source of energy really would do the trick. Perhaps the electron is already excited due to the chemical nature of the substance, and an absorbed photon causes the excited electron to first become even more excited, then crash all the way to its ground state, emitting a higher-energy photon. But florescence is specifically the emission of photons due to the absorption of photons.
 
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Upisoft

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That's one way to do it. Any source of energy really would do the trick. Perhaps the electron is already excited due to the chemical nature of the substance, and an absorbed photon causes the excited electron to first become even more excited, then crash all the way to its ground state, emitting a higher-energy photon. But florescence is specifically the emission of photons due to the absorption of photons.
Nah. I've already seen a video form sixty symbols on YouTube (that's Nottingham university channel) that specifically says that if something is transparent then the photons have no enough energy to excite an electron. So, exciting a whole atom is more viable option, but I want to know how an entire atom can be excited.... And the problem with electrons absorbing photons is that this kind of interaction breaks the entanglement a photon may have with another photon.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Nah. I've already seen a video form sixty symbols on YouTube (that's Nottingham university channel) that specifically says that if something is transparent then the photons have no enough energy to excite an electron. So, exciting a whole atom is more viable option, but I want to know how an entire atom can be excited....
Photons are absorbed by electrons. Electrons don't care how much energy they have, they'll absorb them. The key part is that of re-emission: if the photon doesn't have enough energy to excite the electron up to a new, stable orbit, then the electron is stuck in an unstable, excited orbit, and it quickly spits out the offending photon so that it's stable again. In glass, this is the case. The difference in energy between the ground state and the higher energy level is too great for photons of every day wavelengths (shorter wavelengths, like UV, do have enough energy, hence why glass is opaque to them).

In any case, the nucleus of an atom doesn't absorb photons, it really is the electrons. When absorbed, if the photon is of insufficient energy, the unstable electron spits out the photon after a small delay, hence why light appears to slow down when it passes through glass. In most other materials, light is quite capable of pushing electrons to their higher energy levels. After that, the material absorbs the energy as heat, and the electron falls back down by emitting a low-energy photon (hence why hot things glow).

tl;dr: it really is the electrons, not the atoms. Here's the video again:

Why is glass transparent? - YouTube

And the problem with electrons absorbing photons is that this kind of interaction breaks the entanglement a photon may have with another photon.
Bound electrons absorb photons all the time, it's something we've known about since the turn of the century (understanding it earned Einstein his Nobel Prize). Breaking entanglement is irrelevant to whether or not an electron will absorb a photon.
 
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Chalnoth

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Classical explanation would be OK, if you gave the answer of the question "what defines epsilon and mu for glass".
Well, that's mostly down to the physics of the individual atoms. I'll focus on epsilon, because mu is typically only significantly different from its vacuum value within things like metals which aren't exactly transparent. So it is mostly the difference of epsilon from its vacuum value that makes the difference in the speed of light.

Epsilon can perhaps most easily be understood in the case of a capacitor. Imagine a capacitor with two plates separated by some distance like so:

------------------

------------------

Here we can put some charge on the plates, generating an electric field between them:

+++++++++

-----------------

I've used +'s to denote positive charges, with the -'s being negative charges. In this situation, you'll have an electric field pointing from the positive charges to the negative ones.

Now, if you put some material in between, like so, then that material will be affected by the electric field:

+++++++++
**************
-----------------

Specifically, the positive charges will be pulled a little bit towards the negatively-charged plate, while the negative charges will be pulled a little bit towards the positively-charged plate. This has the effect of partially cancelling the electric field between the two plates. For capacitors, this is extremely useful, because the strength of the electric field determines the energy stored in the capacitor, so that if you have a strong dielectric in between the plates (one which has its charges separate by a lot and thus weaken the electric field by a lot), then you can stack a whole lot more charge on each of the plates for the same energy cost.

So, something like glass has this effect: when you apply an electric field, the positive and negative charges within the glass are separated slightly, partially cancelling the field. Running this through Maxwell's equations and you get a reduction in the speed of light through the material.
 
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Upisoft

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Photons are absorbed by electrons. Electrons don't care how much energy they have, they'll absorb them.
Yeah, that's the video. If you listen to the guy explaining what happens he says: "... but I don't have enough energy to do that. I simply can't get it up there. Therefore I'm not absorbed and I pass through the material." ( at about 2:46 )
 
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Upisoft

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So, something like glass has this effect: when you apply an electric field, the positive and negative charges within the glass are separated slightly, partially cancelling the field. Running this through Maxwell's equations and you get a reduction in the speed of light through the material.
So you see it as energy transfer between the light and the media that goes both ways, but because it takes place the light is slowed down, right?

OK, but on quantum level photons can only be absorbed as far as I know. And when a photon is absorbed there is no guarantee it will be reemitted with the same quantum state it had. For example a mirror can change the impulse of a photon and reflect it, gaining part of its energy in the process. Other solid materials can absorb a photon and turn its energy to heat. Example black car on sunlight.

I can't understand how the photons in a material medium are reemitted with the same quantum properties they had before. Also, how is possible that the speed actually depends on wavelength, i.e. how a prism creates a rainbow?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yeah, that's the video. If you listen to the guy explaining what happens he says: "... but I don't have enough energy to do that. I simply can't get it up there. Therefore I'm not absorbed and I pass through the material." ( at about 2:46 )
He may well say that, but I would disagree that that's the case - if nothing else, the implcation would be that light propagates at an average of c through glass, yet we know it propagates at slightly slower speeds.

To clarify my previous post, photons do need enough energy to move electrons up an energy level, but energy levels are complex creatures. In a simple bound system, like an electron bound to a hydrogen nucleus (i.e., a single proton), the energy levels of that electron are crisp and clear and calculatable. In complex molecules like those found in glass, there is what's called the hyperfine structure of energy levels (essentially, each 'main' energy level is split into a blur of sub-levels, and those into more fine levels still) due to interactions with other electrons and atoms, leading almost to an almost continuous spread of energies - the material has energy bands, where electrons can essentially take any energy. It's not actually continuous, but there are enough that photons of all but the lowest energies get absorbed.

In any event, the man in the video didn't mean to say (or was wrong to say) that photons never get absorbed. The only way they wouldn't is if they didn't come near a single atomic nucleus. Reflection, absorption, and transmission, are the three different ways an electron can re-emit an absorbed photon.

Consider this: if transparency to a wavelength is because that wavelength is too low-energy to be absorbed, then, logically, materials should be opaque to high-energy photons - but we know that gamma rays are fatally capable of passing through materials, save thick slabs of lead. In reality, gamma rays are absorbed like any other photon, but they have enough energy to ionize the material. Moreover, the model implies that there's no such thing as a blue filter: anything that allows blue light through should let all lower-energy light (like red light) through as well. But this isn't the case. It's not that blue light isn't absorbed, it's that it's re-emitted, while red and green light are just absorbed.

In short, I disagree with the man: photons do get absorbed by electrons, for however briefly, because the material is not quite as simple as having clear and distant energy levels - it has a blur of energy levels that overlap with those of neighbouring atoms, creating continuous energy bands. Even if the man were correct, the problem arises when you consider what happens when a photon is of sufficient energy to excite an electron - the electron de-excites, and the photon is re-emitted again, leading to transmission or reflection.
 
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Chalnoth

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So you see it as energy transfer between the light and the media that goes both ways, but because it takes place the light is slowed down, right?

OK, but on quantum level photons can only be absorbed as far as I know. And when a photon is absorbed there is no guarantee it will be reemitted with the same quantum state it had. For example a mirror can change the impulse of a photon and reflect it, gaining part of its energy in the process. Other solid materials can absorb a photon and turn its energy to heat. Example black car on sunlight.
Actually, there you can use symmetries and their respective conservation laws to ensure that it is emitted in much the same way. Basically, if the photon doesn't have enough energy to cause an electron to change state, then the election can only 'borrow' a bit of energy for a very short time before re-emitting the exact same amount, and conservation of momentum ensures that it will be in the right direction.

Another way of looking at it is that if the electron absorbs the photon, but doesn't have a new state to move to, it has to re-emit the photon pretty much right away in the same direction it absorbed it with the same energy the photon entered with. Otherwise the electron would have had to change states to conserve energy and momentum, which we know can't happen because the photon doesn't have enough energy.

Also, how is possible that the speed actually depends on wavelength, i.e. how a prism creates a rainbow?
I don't think this is so difficult to understand in the classical picture. As before, the electric field causes the charges to separate somewhat within the material, and the material is likely to have a bit of elasticity. That is, it will take some amount of time for the charges in the material to respond to the incoming light wave. And if it takes time for the material to respond, then how much the material responds depends upon the frequency of that light wave.
 
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Chalnoth

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Q: If you could reduce the Higgs Field to 0 Value for your ship could you travel at the speed of light given their is no resistance to change of acceleration?
Well, I think the pieces of matter that make up the ship would simply fly away from one another at the speed of light :)
 
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Upisoft

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To clarify my previous post, photons do need enough energy to move electrons up an energy level, but energy levels are complex creatures. In a simple bound system, like an electron bound to a hydrogen nucleus (i.e., a single proton), the energy levels of that electron are crisp and clear and calculatable. In complex molecules like those found in glass, there is what's called the hyperfine structure of energy levels (essentially, each 'main' energy level is split into a blur of sub-levels, and those into more fine levels still) due to interactions with other electrons and atoms, leading almost to an almost continuous spread of energies - the material has energy bands, where electrons can essentially take any energy. It's not actually continuous, but there are enough that photons of all but the lowest energies get absorbed.
You don't take into consideration that photons are bosons. Thus a lot of them(billions) can travel in a packet. Also we know that the speed of light in a material medium is something well defined. If absorption/reemition cycle do happen only few times then we would observe dispersion of light in space-time, i.e. some photons would pass first the glass, much more will go through with the average group and few will be late. That is because some of the photons may interact fewer times and some of them may interact more times with electrons. The speed of light in glass also do not really depend on the thickness of the glass. Thus photons either interact continuously with the glass or in very fine discrete distances. In a very fine discrete distance there are few electrons, and since photons are bosons there may not be enough electrons for all the photons. But we know that transparency does not really depend on intensity of light. If what you say is right, then a electron could get several little kicks of energy that do not bring it to another stable energy level. But if you increase the intensity of the light, sooner or later you'll jump that threshold. Yet experiments show this is not the case, you can't kick an electron to the next energy level(or energy band if you with, the point is that there is a energy gap between those energy bands). So, you see that the problem with this idea is that there can exist a electron with higher enough energy to jump a gap, but not doing it.
 
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Upisoft

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Actually, there you can use symmetries and their respective conservation laws to ensure that it is emitted in much the same way. Basically, if the photon doesn't have enough energy to cause an electron to change state, then the election can only 'borrow' a bit of energy for a very short time before re-emitting the exact same amount, and conservation of momentum ensures that it will be in the right direction.
Another way of looking at it is that if the electron absorbs the photon, but doesn't have a new state to move to, it has to re-emit the photon pretty much right away in the same direction it absorbed it with the same energy the photon entered with. Otherwise the electron would have had to change states to conserve energy and momentum, which we know can't happen because the photon doesn't have enough energy.
If conservation of momentum was required, then mirrors would not work. And if an electron could increase its energy slightly then using a packet of photons with each photon having less energy than required for jumping the gap could make an electron to jump the gap. Nothing like this was observed. Thus probably the electron, if it is responsible, interacts with the photon in some other way, not by absorbing its energy.


I don't think this is so difficult to understand in the classical picture. As before, the electric field causes the charges to separate somewhat within the material, and the material is likely to have a bit of elasticity. That is, it will take some amount of time for the charges in the material to respond to the incoming light wave. And if it takes time for the material to respond, then how much the material responds depends upon the frequency of that light wave.
classical picture is ok :D
I'm in trouble with quantum picture.
 
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mzungu

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Well, I think the pieces of matter that make up the ship would simply fly away from one another at the speed of light :)
Now if only I could reconstitute the scattered matter then I will win the Nobel for inventing the much longed for "Star Trek Transporter"! Beam me up Scotty!!!!!^_^^_^^_^
 
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Chalnoth

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If conservation of momentum was required, then mirrors would not work.
Momentum is conserved in mirrors. The photons impart momentum to the mirror when they bounce off of it. But here we're talking about a transparent medium where the photons don't bounce.

And if an electron could increase its energy slightly then using a packet of photons with each photon having less energy than required for jumping the gap could make an electron to jump the gap. Nothing like this was observed. Thus probably the electron, if it is responsible, interacts with the photon in some other way, not by absorbing its energy.
Well, that's just because the photons don't interact frequently enough for their interactions to add up to an electron jumping an energy gap: the photons are emitted too rapidly, or conversely the electrons aren't able to "borrow" energy for long enough.
 
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Zippy the Wonderslug

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This seems a heck of a lot like a hardware problem, like some of the on-board electronics are dying. If it's still under warranty, see if you can get it either repaired or replaced.

Sorry, this post goes back a few pages.

I did have a dork friend tell me that I need to update the drivers on the TV.

By the way, that image I posted was Fox TV, on air, with about 3 or 4 bars of signal strength.

After it goes into "seizure mode", and yes, I turn on the television and make a mad dash through my kitchen, hallway, and camp out in my bedroom until it's done squealing.

Because yeah, the sound it makes it that terrifying. I can't even begin to explain this noise.

There's also a back story on why my brain is so unsettled when this happens if anyone wants to know.

Anyway, when I come back, the picture is just fine.

I don't even know what model number I have on this piece.

And besides, my friend is a dork, what does he know? :)

Anyone want to help me problem solve my possessed TV?

I'm sure that it's no longer under warranty.
 
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Chalnoth

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Well, it really sounds like your TV just needs to be replaced or repaired, though the repair may cost so much that it's worth it to just get it replaced instead.

And I'm also assuming that the mute button on your remote doesn't work when the TV goes crazy like this either.
 
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Zippy the Wonderslug

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And I'm also assuming that the mute button on your remote doesn't work when the TV goes crazy like this either.

I'm somewhere else at the time.

I do try to set the volume down to 0 before turning it off.

I've remember to this do just once though.

It takes about 6 seconds for the TV to fire up when I press the power button on the remote which gives me plenty of time to run for it. :)

Does the whole driver update thingy sound plausible?

There's a bunch of junk this TV can do with all sorts of holes and slots in the back to plug something into outside of video and audio cables.
 
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