Ask a physicist anything. (3)

[Wiccan_Child]

Except for St. Paul.

Was he the one who never actually met Jesus?

 

[Chesterton]

Was he the one who never actually met Jesus?

Well they met post-Resurrection.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Well they met post-Resurrection.

Where every statement made by Paul on Earth was personally and completely corroborated by Jesus himself?

Who he, y'know, never actually met. Pre death.

 

[Chesterton]

Where every statement made by Paul on Earth was personally and completely corroborated by Jesus himself?

Who he, y'know, never actually met. Pre death.

Yes, corroborated by Jesus through the Holy Spirit I believe. But I don't think Paul's critical to Christianity anyway. I was debating this awhile back with a Muslim who was offering the old "Paul invented Christianity" line. I asked her to name one idea that Paul expressed which is not already basically found in the other Christian apostles and gospel writers. She was pretty knowledgeable with the New Testament, and she honestly admitted she couldn't name anything, and neither can I.

 

[tanzanos]

Actually, it will always look slow to an outside observer. Time dilation in special relativity works both ways - both clocks see the other as the one that's moving, and, thus, the one that's slow.


You'd notice external clocks (by which your speed is measured) to be running slower than your on-board clock. If you decelerated, you'd notice the engine side of your ship tick faster by a tiny fraction.

I meant only onboard clocks. But yes you are correct!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Yes, corroborated by Jesus through the Holy Spirit I believe. But I don't think Paul's critical to Christianity anyway. I was debating this awhile back with a Muslim who was offering the old "Paul invented Christianity" line. I asked her to name one idea that Paul expressed which is not already basically found in the other Christian apostles and gospel writers. She was pretty knowledgeable with the New Testament, and she honestly admitted she couldn't name anything, and neither can I.

I rather like the idea that Paul did actually invented Christianity, and the other writers of the Bible (Mark, etc) were retroactively put in: Paul 'saw' them, spoke of them, and over the decades myths and stories built up about what, say, Mark would have written. And one day someone wrote that down, and called it the Gospel of Mark.

 

[Cabal]

I rather like the idea that Paul did actually invented Christianity, and the other writers of the Bible (Mark, etc) were retroactively put in: Paul 'saw' them, spoke of them, and over the decades myths and stories built up about what, say, Mark would have written. And one day someone wrote that down, and called it the Gospel of Mark.

Motivation? (An old-fashioned version of L. Ron Hubbard, perhaps?)

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Motivation? (An old-fashioned version of L. Ron Hubbard, perhaps?)

Not Hubbard no: Paul actually believed what he preached, Hubbard was just a con-artist. Nowadays, we'd see a hallucination like that and get ourselves checked into an asylum. But back then, he'd genuinely believe it to be God revealing himself to him.

The Gospels came about like out public understanding of Elves today: there were all these myths, legends, and stories floating about, and then Tolkien wrote down a big old epic book about them. This became the staple today: Tolkien's Elves are the Elves. Likewise, someone wrote down the Gospel of Mark, and it became the Gospel of Mark, considered to be authored by Mark himself.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Also, this thread now has precisely 10,000 views Yay thread!

 

[Chesterton]

I rather like the idea that Paul did actually invented Christianity, and the other writers of the Bible (Mark, etc) were retroactively put in: Paul 'saw' them, spoke of them, and over the decades myths and stories built up about what, say, Mark would have written. And one day someone wrote that down, and called it the Gospel of Mark.

Motivation?

He was a member of the prestigious elite of Jewish society, but he just really wanted to become a wandering tentmaker and criminal outcast.

Not Hubbard no: he actually believed what he preached. Nowadays, we'd see a hallucination like that and get ourselves checked into an asylum. But back then, he'd genuinely believe it to be God revealing himself to him.

The Gospels came about like out public understanding of Elves today: there were all these myths, legends, and stories floating about, and then Tolkien wrote down a big old epic book about them. This became the staple today: Tolkien's Elves are the Elves. Likewise, someone wrote down the Gospel of Mark, and it became the Gospel of Mark, considered to be authored by Mark himself.

You actually think the science-fiction writer Hubbard believed what he said? :o

 

[Wiccan_Child]

He was a member of the prestigious elite of Jewish society, but he just really wanted to become a wandering tentmaker and criminal outcast.

You actually think the science-fiction writer Hubbard believed what he said? :o

No, that's what I said: the difference between Paul and Hubbard is that the former believed what he preached, while the latter was a con-artist of epic proportions.

 

[Chesterton]

Not Hubbard no: he actually believed what he preached.

Oh, sorry. I thought "he" was referring to Hubbard.

Anyway, it must have been the most sublime hallucination ever. I agree with the person who said it would take one greater than Jesus to invent Jesus.

 

[Cabal]

He was a member of the prestigious elite of Jewish society, but he just really wanted to become a wandering tentmaker and criminal outcast.

According to the accounts he wrote....

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Oh, sorry. I thought "he" was referring to Hubbard.

Anyway, it must have been the most sublime hallucination ever. I agree with the person who said it would take one greater than Jesus to invent Jesus.

Surprisingly, I would have to disagree Gods, goddesses, avatars, messiahs, all of them are decidedly human.
What did Zeus do with his phenomenal cosmic power? He spent his time wooing women.
What did Jesus do when a fig tree deigned to be bare? He cursed it.

If anything, I'd say Buddhism is the most likely religion to be 'invented' by something non-human - the other religions, Christianity included, are all too easily seen as being human inventions, fitting the mores and philosophies of the time.

 

[Cabal]

Anyway, it must have been the most sublime hallucination ever. I agree with the person who said it would take one greater than Jesus to invent Jesus.

Would it? Conceptually at least, it's hardly a unique set of ideas.

 

[Chesterton]

Surprisingly, I would have to disagree Gods, goddesses, avatars, messiahs, all of them are decidedly human.
What did Zeus do with his phenomenal cosmic power? He spent his time wooing women.
What did Jesus do when a fig tree deigned to be bare? He cursed it.

If anything, I'd say Buddhism is the most likely religion to be 'invented' by something non-human - the other religions, Christianity included, are all too easily seen as being human inventions, fitting the mores and philosophies of the time.

I didn't intend to take up too many posts here with this, but let me point out one problem with your idea. Paul, and others, say he was persecuting Christians (people who believed in the risen Christ) for some years prior to his hallucination. In fact, that was the subject of the conversation in the hallucination: Christ asks Saul "Why are you persecuting me?" So if I grant that Paul's experience was a hallucination, it only goes to show that the Christian beliefs were already known and believed before the hallucination. Even as hallucination, it makes no sense otherwise.

Would it? Conceptually at least, it's hardly a unique set of ideas.

Are you saying Jesus isn't special, or just that Christian ideas are not utterly unique? I'd agree with the second thing to an extent, but I'd disagree with the first.

 

[Cabal]

Are you saying Jesus isn't special, or just that Christian ideas are not utterly unique? I'd agree with the second thing to an extent, but I'd disagree with the first.

Existentially, (I believe) Jesus is unique - the idea of him (or any kind of sacrificial leader figure), as well as a lot of other Christian ideas, are not.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I didn't intend to take up too many posts here with this, but let me point out one problem with your idea. Paul, and others, say he was persecuting Christians (people who believed in the risen Christ) for some years prior to his hallucination. In fact, that was the subject of the conversation in the hallucination: Christ asks Saul "Why are you persecuting me?" So if I grant that Paul's experience was a hallucination, it only goes to show that the Christian beliefs were already known and believed before the hallucination. Even as hallucination, it makes no sense otherwise.

A small detail like "And he persecuted Christians" could easily be added in the post-event write up. According to the hypothesis, 400CE Christians (say) would think Jesus and Christianity really did start in 33CE - rather than about a decade after Paul's conversion. So, it's not a stretch to imagine the persecution thing being just another myth that grew up and was eventually written down.

Are you saying Jesus isn't special, or just that Christian ideas are not utterly unique? I'd agree with the second thing to an extent, but I'd disagree with the first.

Jesus was no more special than any of the other religious figures that came before or after him. Obviously, you, a Christian, would disagree, but can you at least see why I, an atheist, would agree with it?

 

[KIYX]

Also, this thread now has precisely 10,000 views Yay thread!

Grats man this is a great thread.

 

[Chesterton]

A small detail like "And he persecuted Christians" could easily be added in the post-event write up. According to the hypothesis, 400CE Christians (say) would think Jesus and Christianity really did start in 33CE - rather than about a decade after Paul's conversion. So, it's not a stretch to imagine the persecution thing being just another myth that grew up and was eventually written down.

That's off your point. You said Christianity was invented by Paul due to a hallucination which he actually believed, and the content of the hallucination was that he should stop persecuting Christianity. It makes no sense. (Assuming you're not an American baseball pitcher), it would be like you, Wiccan, having a hallucination where God spoke to you and told you to stop being an American baseball pitcher, and there was no such thing as baseball, and you actually believed it.

Jesus was no more special than any of the other religious figures that came before or after him. Obviously, you, a Christian, would disagree, but can you at least see why I, an atheist, would agree with it?

Honestly I don't see why. We now take it for granted, but I think the story of Jesus is the strangest story ever told. Upon reflection, every other story seems to me expected and normal in comparison. Plus the men who told the story were very insistent that it's true. So I think he's special, and over the years many non-Christians have agreed.