Ask a physicist anything. (3)

[Cabal]

That's off your point. You said Christianity was invented by Paul due to a hallucination which he actually believed, and the content of the hallucination was that he should stop persecuting Christianity. It makes no sense. (Assuming you're not an American baseball pitcher), it would be like you, Wiccan, having a hallucination where God spoke to you and told you to stop being an American baseball pitcher, and there was no such thing as baseball, and you actually believed it.

"I didn't use to believe in it at first, but now I do!"

Honestly I don't see why. We now take it for granted, but I think the story of Jesus is the strangest story ever told. Upon reflection, every other story seems to me expected and normal in comparison. Plus the men who told the story were very insistent that it's true. So I think he's special, and over the years many non-Christians have agreed.

Well, every myth has its followers that insist it's true, so that's hardly a criterion for establishing the truth of any of them. What is uniquely strange about this story?

 

[Delphiki]

IB4 the Horus references.

I speculate, and for no good reason, that Jesus was an actual person (or maybe a number of different people), who's miracles were likely either exaggeration or fabrication. Not only because there's no rational reason to believe in miracles, but because his story and/or aspects of his story actually predate him by thousands of years in earlier civilizations.

 

[Chesterton]

Well, every myth has its followers that insist it's true, so that's hardly a criterion for establishing the truth of any of them. What is uniquely strange about this story?

A myth is a story to try and point to or illustrate some perceived truth, even if it's explicitly symbolical. As you noted, there were already people who taught that humans ought to be good. But there's no real point to Jesus as myth, because the point of the story is primarily the factuality of Jesus as God.

Plus there are the numerous weird contradictions, such as a man extolling meekness and humility who at the same time says you should follow him even at the cost of hating your own family. And the weird contradiction of a man claiming to be God and yet washing other men's feet.

 

[Cabal]

A myth is a story to try and point to or illustrate some perceived truth, even if it's explicitly symbolical. As you noted, there were already people who taught that humans ought to be good. But there's no real point to Jesus as myth, because the point of the story is primarily the factuality of Jesus as God.

I wouldn't say there's no point - reassurement against death in an uncertain time seems as good a reason as any for the parts that aren't extolling a particular morality.

Plus there are the numerous weird contradictions, such as a man extolling meekness and humility who at the same time says you should follow him even at the cost of hating your own family. And the weird contradiction of a man claiming to be God and yet washing other men's feet.

Well, again, this isn't much of an indicator of veracity as contradictions are typically evidence of a story being fabricated.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

That's off your point. You said Christianity was invented by Paul due to a hallucination which he actually believed, and the content of the hallucination was that he should stop persecuting Christianity. It makes no sense. (Assuming you're not an American baseball pitcher), it would be like you, Wiccan, having a hallucination where God spoke to you and told you to stop being an American baseball pitcher, and there was no such thing as baseball, and you actually believed it.

Exactly: even if there was no such thing as a baseball, that wouldn't stop me from believing in them. Paul, after his hallucination, was convinced that Jesus did exist - regardless of whether he did or not. Modern day stories about Paul say that he was a persecutor of Christians, and that his hallucination - or vision, if you prefer - told him to stop persecuting them. But that could quite easily be retroactive embellishments to a more simple story. The conversion story is more impressive if Paul wasn't just an ordinary commoner, but a fully-fledged anti-Christian. A Baptist becoming Protestant is not that noteworthy, but Christopher Hitchens becoming a Protestant is very impressive indeed.

The 'true' series of events is that Paul wasn't a persecutor of Christians, that his hallucination didn't tell him to stop persecuting Christians (since he wasn't persecuting them in the first place). His hallucination was the origin of Jesus (and possibly the disciples too), his subsequent travelling and preaching was the origin of Christianity, and later generations of Christians sort of filled in the blanks, writing the various testimonies and gospels that we attribute to Mark and the like.

Honestly I don't see why. We now take it for granted, but I think the story of Jesus is the strangest story ever told.

Why? What's strange about it? The elements of the Jesus story are found again and again in myths and legends set before, during, and after Jesus. Horus, Osiris, Mithras... I'm sure you know as well as I that the legends surrounding them echo those of Jesus. So, I don't see the story of Jesus as strange, or, at least, any more strange than myths of other religious figures.

Upon reflection, every other story seems to me expected and normal in comparison. Plus the men who told the story were very insistent that it's true. So I think he's special, and over the years many non-Christians have agreed.

Every adherent to a story will insist it's true: you insist the Jesus story is true, Muslims insist the Muhammed story is true, etc.

 

[nojnoj]

If anything, I'd say Buddhism is the most likely religion to be 'invented' by something non-human -

Just out of interest, why do you say this? (Friendly question)

the other religions, Christianity included, are all too easily seen as being human inventions, fitting the mores and philosophies of the time.

Definitely agree. It seems blindingly obvious that the OT in particular is a set of self-justifiying folk myths of a desert tribe. If there was no Jesus event, it would be known only to Jews and religious historians.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Just out of interest, why do you say this? (Friendly question)

Probably because I have a soft spot for Buddhism I can see a sort of logical progression in the history of religion, from spiritism to animism to polytheism to monotheism. But Buddhism seems to be something else entirely; most religions are just variations on a theme, but Buddhism is quite unique. I guess that while most religions are (apparently) obviously made by human minds, Buddhism isn't: is human origins are more subtle, I suppose.

/ramble

Definitely agree. It seems blindingly obvious that the OT in particular is a set of self-justifiying folk myths of a desert tribe. If there was no Jesus event, it would be known only to Jews and religious historians.

And if the Roman Empire adopted Mithraism instead of Christianity, you can bet we'd be posting in MithraianForums instead of CF

 

[Steffenfield]

I remember, I'll just say maybe around 15 years ago, that some dude invented like this crystal thingy.

Anyway, you shine a specific frequency of light directly on a single spot on this crystal and it would remember that exact "color" if you will.

Since there's like a infinite spectrum and a full load of areas on the crystal for this laser beam light whatever to read and write on it, it could store the entire world of information on this little piece of rock stuff.

Any clue at all what this might be or what happened to the guy who invented it?

It was a special on TV I remember seeing. No clue as to what the show was though.

Mostly likely, the US government shot him.

 

[pgp_protector]

I remember, I'll just say maybe around 15 years ago, that some dude invented like this crystal thingy.

Anyway, you shine a specific frequency of light directly on a single spot on this crystal and it would remember that exact "color" if you will.

Since there's like a infinite spectrum and a full load of areas on the crystal for this laser beam light whatever to read and write on it, it could store the entire world of information on this little piece of rock stuff.

Any clue at all what this might be or what happened to the guy who invented it?

It was a special on TV I remember seeing. No clue as to what the show was though.

Mostly likely, the US government shot him.

Sounds like your talking about holographic storage, it's still in development.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_data_storage

ETA:
Not shot but the government may of taken their assets for not paying taxes.
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/holographic-storage-bites-the-dust/799

 

[tanzanos]

Probably because I have a soft spot for Buddhism I can see a sort of logical progression in the history of religion, from spiritism to animism to polytheism to monotheism. But Buddhism seems to be something else entirely; most religions are just variations on a theme, but Buddhism is quite unique. I guess that while most religions are (apparently) obviously made by human minds, Buddhism isn't: is human origins are more subtle, I suppose.

One can be a Christian and still follow Buddhism! Buddha was not a deity and Buddhism is a philosophy not a religion per se! Personally I have no arguments with Buddhism with the exception of reincarnation. Although the philosophy behind reincarnation is sound in that it teaches one that if one conducts himself as a good person then eventually he will reach the highest state. Far from the eternal damnation preached on the pulpits of churches. Buddhism gives one the chance to redeem himself or suffer being reborn into a difficult life all over again! Reincarnation is very unlike the 'threatening' "Thou shalt suffer eternal damnation in fire and brimstone".

 

[Steffenfield]

Okay, here's a weird one to ponder. I haven't tried but I seriously doubt Google will have an answer to this.

What would be the theoretical serum levels of either potassium or sodium in a human body that could cause them to physically explode?

I know, I know, morbid question.

I just like seeing this thread stay alive. That's all.

 

[nojnoj]

Probably because I have a soft spot for Buddhism I can see a sort of logical progression in the history of religion, from spiritism to animism to polytheism to monotheism. But Buddhism seems to be something else entirely; most religions are just variations on a theme, but Buddhism is quite unique. I guess that while most religions are (apparently) obviously made by human minds, Buddhism isn't: is human origins are more subtle, I suppose.

I know what you mean. It seems more "cosmic" than other systems, and counterintuitive, and in some ways more moral - the idea of the welfare of sentient beings, not just "man". It's also far more knowing of human psychology (just compare the fundie belief that you must, by an act of pure will, believe in your heart that JC is saviour, or you'll burn for ever ).

And if the Roman Empire adopted Mithraism instead of Christianity, you can bet we'd be posting in MithraianForums instead of CF

"Forums: Edification (Mithraists only) > Advice on bull slaying"

 

[nojnoj]

Okay, here's a weird one to ponder. I haven't tried but I seriously doubt Google will have an answer to this.

What would be the theoretical serum levels of either potassium or sodium in a human body that could cause them to physically explode?

Somewhere, deep in the bowels of the NSA, you've just been put on a watchlist ...

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I know what you mean. It seems more "cosmic" than other systems, and counterintuitive, and in some ways more moral - the idea of the welfare of sentient beings, not just "man". It's also far more knowing of human psychology (just compare the fundie belief that you must, by an act of pure will, believe in your heart that JC is saviour, or you'll burn for ever ).

I like that; it's more cosmic.

"Forums: Edification (Mithraists only) > Advice on bull slaying"

Hahaha

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Okay, here's a weird one to ponder. I haven't tried but I seriously doubt Google will have an answer to this.

What would be the theoretical serum levels of either potassium or sodium in a human body that could cause them to physically explode?

I know, I know, morbid question.

Hmm. I'd be surprised if Potassium could do it, especially since your body's water is sequestered away in cells and the like. Caesium would probably blow you up if you put a spoonful in your bladder .

I just like seeing this thread stay alive. That's all.

This thread has survived three thousand posts and it will survive three thousand more! Bwahaha

 

[Assyrian]

Wouldn't serum levels be in the form of K[sup]+[/sup] and Na[sup]+[/sup] ions and therefore stable?

 

[Chesterton]

Exactly: even if there was no such thing as a baseball, that wouldn't stop me from believing in them. Paul, after his hallucination, was convinced that Jesus did exist - regardless of whether he did or not. Modern day stories about Paul say that he was a persecutor of Christians, and that his hallucination - or vision, if you prefer - told him to stop persecuting them. But that could quite easily be retroactive embellishments to a more simple story. The conversion story is more impressive if Paul wasn't just an ordinary commoner, but a fully-fledged anti-Christian. A Baptist becoming Protestant is not that noteworthy, but Christopher Hitchens becoming a Protestant is very impressive indeed.

The 'true' series of events is that Paul wasn't a persecutor of Christians, that his hallucination didn't tell him to stop persecuting Christians (since he wasn't persecuting them in the first place). His hallucination was the origin of Jesus (and possibly the disciples too), his subsequent travelling and preaching was the origin of Christianity, and later generations of Christians sort of filled in the blanks, writing the various testimonies and gospels that we attribute to Mark and the like.


Why? What's strange about it? The elements of the Jesus story are found again and again in myths and legends set before, during, and after Jesus. Horus, Osiris, Mithras... I'm sure you know as well as I that the legends surrounding them echo those of Jesus. So, I don't see the story of Jesus as strange, or, at least, any more strange than myths of other religious figures.


Every adherent to a story will insist it's true: you insist the Jesus story is true, Muslims insist the Muhammed story is true, etc.

There've been a couple of science questions since last I was able to respond, and I can tell my responses and yours are starting to get lengthier. I think I have half a dozen ways to show you your ideas about Paul are "worse than Hitler"TM but I don't want to be accused of derailing this thread onto religion. If you want to talk about Paul in your EC thread or somewhere else, just let me know.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

There've been a couple of science questions since last I was able to respond, and I can tell my responses and yours are starting to get lengthier. I think I have half a dozen ways to show you your ideas about Paul are "worse than Hitler"TM but I don't want to be accused of derailing this thread onto religion. If you want to talk about Paul in your EC thread or somewhere else, just let me know.

We do have a tendency to do that, don't we I'm still writing my replies to the mega-posts over in EC, so yea I'll add something about Paul in there.

 

[tanzanos]

I have one for ya:

At the Plank level; does time exist and how is it affected by the wormholes residing in the quantum foam? (God did it is not an acceptable answer)

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I have one for ya:

At the Plank level; does time exist and how is it affected by the wormholes residing in the quantum foam? (God did it is not an acceptable answer)

God! (Because God can do it even when he can't)

Time does exist, in discrete units called Plank time (the shortest possible time between two events, according to current theory). Time is a bit more peculiar at that scale, and we don't quite know why. We know that it should be symmetric (i.e., you can't tell whether a particular interaction is running normally, or if it's been 'reversed' like an old VHS), except... it's not. The weak force (and, as recently discovered, the strong force) violate symmetry.

So, yea. Time exists, but buggered if we know what's going on. In my opinion, classical mechanics deals with things from kilometres to microns, quantum mechanics deals with things from microns to picometres, and anything below that... well, I reckon we should leave that to whatever comes next!