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Ask a physicist anything. (3)

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AvalonXQ

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So do they just occupy the same space?

Photons don't really "occupy" the space they're in. Any number of photons can have the same positional waveform without breaking any physical law. And it's not even meaningful to talk about them having an exact position in the absence of a massive particle for them to interact with.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I don't know, but this seems very much like a "look it up on a table" kind of question. Is there a more interesting conceptual question underlying this question?
No. It was a facetious question to kick-start my thread again.

Photons generate gravity and the magnitude of that gravity increases with the photon's energy/frequency. Lets say we have two very energetic photons being emitted and they travel parallel to eachother at a distance where their gravity has an effect so they get pulled together, do they eventually come together? What happens?
They don't produce their own gravity, as they're massless. They feel gravity of other particles, though.

Choose a type of radius first.
The distance from the centre to the edge.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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According to GR they do as they have energy.
I disagree. All energy, photons included, produces gravitation proportional to the energy.
Gravitation in General Relativity is the warping of spacetime due to mass, or their energetic equivalent, so I suppose there would be a tiny gravitational effect. Given the tiny scales, though, I'm sceptical that it's not an oversight of the errors of Relativity (namely, the precedence we give to Quantum Mechanics over Relativity).
 
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AvalonXQ

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Gravitation in General Relativity is the warping of spacetime due to mass, or their energetic equivalent, so I suppose there would be a tiny gravitational effect.
... which can be seen on a massive scale in, for instance, the gravitational attraction due to the sun's magnetic field. That's right -- as I understand it, the sun's magnetic field has enough energy that it itself has a significant gravitational effect on the orbit of Mercury.
Energy has gravitation, whether the energy is wrapped up in what we call "mass" or not.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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... which can be seen on a massive scale in, for instance, the gravitational attraction due to the sun's magnetic field. That's right -- as I understand it, the sun's magnetic field has enough energy that it itself has a significant gravitational effect on the orbit of Mercury.
Energy has gravitation, whether the energy is wrapped up in what we call "mass" or not.
Do you have a source for this solar effect?
 
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AvalonXQ

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Do you have a source for this solar effect?

Look up the GR correction to the orbit of mercury.
I was wrong, though -- it's the energy contribution of the gravitational field that creates the effect, not the magnetic field.
But the bottom line remains the same: energy fields and massless particles still cause gravitational attraction (spacetime curvature) proportional to their energy even though the energy isn't wrapped up in rest mass.
By the way, if the reverse were true, we could essentially change the gravitational attraction of a closed system by reducing massive particles to massless particles. But if I put a bunch of matter and antimatter in a box, the gravitational attraction of the box doesn't vary depending on how much of the stuff annihilates.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Look up the GR correction to the orbit of mercury.
That's to do with warping caused by the Sun itself, not the photons it gives off.

I was wrong, though -- it's the energy contribution of the gravitational field that creates the effect, not the magnetic field.
But the bottom line remains the same: energy fields and massless particles still cause gravitational attraction (spacetime curvature) proportional to their energy even though the energy isn't wrapped up in rest mass.
Perhaps, but Google isn't turning up anything to support that. That's why I asked for a source to the claim that massless particles induce gravity.

By the way, if the reverse were true, we could essentially change the gravitational attraction of a closed system by reducing massive particles to massless particles. But if I put a bunch of matter and antimatter in a box, the gravitational attraction of the box doesn't vary depending on how much of the stuff annihilates.
Effectively, yes. You can change the charge gradient of a box full of electrons and positrons by annihilating the whole thing. The principle is the same for when you convert a massive particle into a massless one: the gravitational potential energy is switched to kinetic energy, the mass is switched to energy. While more things than mass warp spacetime, non-mass energy does not necessarily come into that.
 
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AvalonXQ

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Effectively, yes. You can change the charge gradient of a box full of electrons and positrons by annihilating the whole thing.
Considering the box as a unit, the charge remains the same in a closed system regardless of what reactions occur. You cannot get a different charge state from annihilating anti-particles than I can get from just placing them randomly in the box (you can, of course, polarize the box, but then we're not really considering the box as a discrete unit but giving the box significant extent). The charge of the box doesn't change; neither does the gravitational attraction it produces. You can't get rid of gravity just by converting mass to another energy form, and I would be very interested to see a reference that says you can.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Considering the box as a unit, the charge remains the same in a closed system regardless of what reactions occur. You cannot get a different charge state from annihilating anti-particles than I can get from just placing them randomly in the box (you can, of course, polarize the box, but then we're not really considering the box as a discrete unit but giving the box significant extent). The charge of the box doesn't change; neither does the gravitational attraction it produces.
The charge of the box does indeed change. Van der Waals forces are electromagnetic forces that occur because of a local charge gradient on dipoles; water, for instance, is ever so slightly more positively charged at its hydrogen atoms, and ever so slightly negative at its oxygen atom. This force is quite important, so we can't simply assume that a net charge of zero will always act the same as a gross charge of zero; a box with no charged particles in it will not necessarily behave the same as a box with equal numbers of protons and neutrons (it will, ironically, have mass).
 
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Nabobalis

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No. It was a facetious question to kick-start my thread again.


They don't produce their own gravity, as they're massless. They feel gravity of other particles, though.


The distance from the centre to the edge.

Atomic radius 156 pm
Covalent radius 196±7 pm
Van der Waals radius 186 pm

Well you should know that there is more than one radius :p
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Atomic radius 156 pm
Covalent radius 196±7 pm
Van der Waals radius 186 pm

Well you should know that there is more than one radius :p
Well sure, that's the nuance of the question :p I wanted to incite heated and vitriol debate on just what constitutes the boundary of an atom. That said, what did you use for the atomic radii?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I'm familiar with the reality of dipole moments, and the analogy is beside the point.
Do you have any literature that supports the assertion that a particle-antiparticle pair have more gravitational attraction than the photons they annihilate into?
Do you have any that they don't? I've looked on Google, in my textbooks, on physics forums and papers, and there's nothing to suggest that photons do or do not produce gravity. Even if they did produce gravity, it would be far beyond out ability to detect it, so the lack of consensus is not surprising.
 
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AvalonXQ

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Do you have any that they don't? I've looked on Google, in my textbooks, on physics forums and papers, and there's nothing to suggest that photons do or do not produce gravity. Even if they did produce gravity, it would be far beyond out ability to detect it, so the lack of consensus is not surprising.

I think I'm in pretty much the same place you are, in fact. My understanding is that GR predicts gravity whenever there's energy. Beyond that, I have nothing specific towards photons either.
I thought I did, but I don't.
I guess we're past our expertise.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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What's the best way to calculate the Lunar Phase and position of the Moon, and the Position of the Sun for any given date at a given lassitude & longitude ?
A website, I'd imagine. Or, if you have the time, get a computer to model the three-body problem with classical mechanics using the Earth in as a non-inertial frame of reference: the Sun and the Moon will follow a two-dimensional non-Euclidean path that's lovely and regular, so I'd imagine a sinusoidal equation in something similar to polar coordinates...

Buggered if I know what the equation is though ^_^.
 
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TemperateSeaIsland

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What's the best way to calculate the Lunar Phase and position of the Moon, and the Position of the Sun for any given date at a given lassitude & longitude ?

Google sky... I have it on my mobile and I geek out everytime I use it.
 
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