Ask a Philosophical Calvinist Christian

[True Scotsman]

Robert

As I understand it, there is nothing about God that is necessarily physical. He created the physical world and he became physically manifest in Christ but there is nothing that would lead me to believe that God had any sort of physical existence before creation. The concept of creation refers to the beginning of the physical world and of all that is not God. Before creation there was nothing physical. At least as far as what's been revealed in Scripture.

Thanks for your answer. I have another question: If God at the beginning was a consciousness without objects how was he aware that he was conscious?

 

[Tree of Life]

Thanks for your answer. I have another question: If God at the beginning was a consciousness without objects how was he aware that he was conscious?

From eternity God has always been conscious of himself and in communion with himself as three distinct persons. He's also been eternally conscious of his plan for creation and history.

 

[bhsmte]

From eternity God has always been conscious of himself and in communion with himself as three distinct persons. He's also been eternally conscious of his plan of creation and history.

What are you basing these conclusions on?

 

[Tree of Life]

What are you basing these conclusions on?

From God's self disclosure found in the words of the Bible. If you'd like specific references I can provide them.

 

[bhsmte]

From God's self disclosure found in the words of the Bible. If you'd like specific references I can provide them.

Sure, toss them this way.

How are you certain the bible accurately describes God?

 

[True Scotsman]

From eternity God has always been conscious of himself and in communion with himself as three distinct persons. He's also been eternally conscious of his plan for creation and history.

Thanks again for your answer. I still don't know how a consciousness can be conscious of itself without first being conscious of something external to itself. In other words consciousness is an action. And we can observe ourselves in the act of observing an object. In that case our consciousness is a secondary object. But how could a consciousness be its own object if it hasn't taken the action of observing an object distinct from itself. Remember we are talking about a consciousness here without any physical instruments such as eyes and ears. And even if it had these it would not have any objects to impinge on its physical senses.

 

[Received]

Thanks again for your answer. I still don't know how a consciousness can be conscious of itself without first being conscious of something external to itself. In other words consciousness is an action. And we can observe ourselves in the act of observing an object. In that case our consciousness is a secondary object. But how could a consciousness be its own object if it hasn't taken the action of observing an object distinct from itself. Remember we are talking about a consciousness here without any physical instruments such as eyes and ears. And even if it had these it would not have any objects to impinge on its physical senses.

Consciousness never really is consciousness of itself, if by the self you mean consciousness; such would be like trying to bite your own teeth. But it seems that the self that consciousness is conscious of isn't consciousness, but is rather some abstract sense of what psychologists call the ideal self. When I get self-conscious (in a bad way), what happens? I become very much aware of my actions, in the past for sure, but what causes the anxiety that makes self-consciousness unpleasant is the possibilities that are part of my ideal self: how will I act in the future?

 

[True Scotsman]

Consciousness never really is consciousness of itself, if by the self you mean consciousness; such would be like trying to bite your own teeth. But it seems that the self that consciousness is conscious of isn't consciousness, but is rather some abstract sense of what psychologists call the ideal self. When I get self-conscious (in a bad way), what happens? I become very much aware of my actions, in the past for sure, but what causes the anxiety that makes self-consciousness unpleasant is the possibilities that are part of my ideal self: how will I act in the future?

OK but how does a consciousness not conscious of itself form an abstraction. How would it have a concept of "ideal" or "self"? I mean it's sort of like the brain in the vat scenario. How does a brain in a vat form the concept "brain" or "vat".

 

[Tree of Life]

Thanks again for your answer. I still don't know how a consciousness can be conscious of itself without first being conscious of something external to itself. In other words consciousness is an action. And we can observe ourselves in the act of observing an object. In that case our consciousness is a secondary object. But how could a consciousness be its own object if it hasn't taken the action of observing an object distinct from itself. Remember we are talking about a consciousness here without any physical instruments such as eyes and ears. And even if it had these it would not have any objects to impinge on its physical senses.

The Father is conscious of the Son and the Spirit. The Son is conscious of the Father and the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is conscious of the Son and the Father.

All three are conscious of God's plan for creation and history.

 

[Received]

OK but how does a consciousness not conscious of itself form an abstraction. How would it have a concept of "ideal" or "self"? I mean it's sort of like the brain in the vat scenario. How does a brain in a vat form the concept "brain" or "vat".

I'm saying that to be conscious of oneself means that one is conscious of one's ideal self. Consciousness conscious of one of its ideas.

 

[True Scotsman]

The Father is conscious of the Son and the Spirit. The Son is conscious of the Father and the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is conscious of the Son and the Father.

All three are conscious of God's plan for creation and history.

Thank you. I appreciate your answers.

Robert

 

[True Scotsman]

I'm saying that to be conscious of oneself means that one is conscious of one's ideal self. Consciousness conscious of one of its ideas.

Ideas about what? We've established that at some point there would have been no objects to be conscious of. It makes no sense at all to say a consciousness is not conscious of itself but is conscious of its ideal self. That is a contradiction.

I'm trying to understand how this could be logically possible. Are you saying it just happens somehow?

 

[rockytopva]

"Philosophical" meaning that I hold a degree in philosophy and so have some familiarity with philosophical issues and discourse.

"Calvinist" meaning that I generally agree with reformed systems of theology and confessions.

"Christian" meaning that I confess that Jesus is Lord of all peoples and nations and is the only mediator between God and man.

If you ever wanted to ask a philosopher, calvinist, or Christian anything...

Is it true that the Baptist don't believe in backsliding but the Methodist practice it

 

[Received]

Ideas about what? We've established that at some point there would have been no objects to be conscious of. It makes no sense at all to say a consciousness is not conscious of itself but is conscious of its ideal self. That is a contradiction.

I'm trying to understand how this could be logically possible. Are you saying it just happens somehow?

I'm saying it's not possible to be conscious of yourself, if "self" means consciousness. Therefore -- and I think phenomenologically this can be seen -- the self must be something more than consciousness. I know, screwy. This means that the self I am is *not* the consciousness I have. Does that make sense so far? I know it's odd.

 

[True Scotsman]

I'm saying it's not possible to be conscious of yourself, if "self" means consciousness. Therefore -- and I think phenomenologically this can be seen -- the self must be something more than consciousness. I know, screwy. This means that the self I am is *not* the consciousness I have. Does that make sense so far? I know it's odd.

No, not really.

 

[Received]

Consciousness can't be conscious of consciousness. Good so far?

 

[True Scotsman]

Consciousness can't be conscious of consciousness. Good so far?

We can be conscious of our consciousness but only as a secondary object. I'm conscious of my mind thinking of what to write for instance right now. Consciousness is not an entity, it's an action performed by an entity and just as I can't observe someone swimming until they swim, a consciousness can't observe itself until it is aware of something else separate from itself. This seems to me to be self evident. Imagine you have no sense organs, no brain, no body, and there is absolutely nothing to be aware of. How could any conscious action take place?

I can imagine such a thing but the imaginary isn't real.

 

[Received]

We can be conscious of our consciousness but only as a secondary object. I'm conscious of my mind thinking of what to write for instance right now. Consciousness is not an entity, it's an action performed by an entity and just as I can't observe someone swimming until they swim, a consciousness can't observe itself until it is aware of something else separate from itself. This seems to me to be self evident. Imagine you have no sense organs, no brain, no body, and there is absolutely nothing to be aware of. How could any conscious action take place?

I can imagine such a thing but the imaginary isn't real.

I agree that consciousness is an action. But I'd argue that you're not conscious of your *consciousness*, but the part of your consciousness that involves thoughts; you're aware of your thoughts, and thoughts and images changing, which implicates consciousness, but you're still not conscious of consciousness.

 

[True Scotsman]

I agree that consciousness is an action. But I'd argue that you're not conscious of your *consciousness*, but the part of your consciousness that involves thoughts; you're aware of your thoughts, and thoughts and images changing, which implicates consciousness, but you're still not conscious of consciousness.

I disagree.

 

[WisdomTree]

Which branch of philosophy?