Ask a Philosophical Calvinist Christian

[jayem]

Upon studying the scriptures and reading the systems and formulations of many teachers and theologians I believe that Calvin and his ilk apprehend the Bible most accurately.

I don't believe in the Biblical God (or any god for that matter.) But I agree completely that election makes the most logical sense. If God is truly sovereign, then everything that happens must be in accordance with his divine plan for the universe. And that must include whether I ever accept Christ. As I see it, if it's within God's plan that I become a believer, then he will arrange events so that it happens. And if it never happens, then it was never meant to be.

My question is if you've ever asked those who claim to have chosen faith, how they know it was truly their choice. How can they know that God wasn't subconsciously controlling their will? God can certainly can do this. Didn't he harden the heart of Pharoah to refuse freeing the Hebrews?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

God "prefers" universal salvation only in a prescriptive sense. He does not prefer it decretively.


Both man and God. Man is condemned because of his sin. God condemns a man for his sin.

So then, man can resist God's grace.

More scriptural proof:

Matt 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem! She who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing!

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't believe in the Biblical God (or any god for that matter.) But I agree that election makes the most logical sense. If God is truly sovereign, then everything that happens must be in accordance with his divine plan for the universe. And that must include whether I ever accept Christ. As I see it, if it's within God's plan that I become a believer, then he will arrange events so that it happens. And if it never happens, then it was never meant to be.

My question is if you've ever asked those who claim to have chosen faith, how they know it was truly their choice. How can they know that God wasn't subconsciously controlling their will? God can certainly can do this. Didn't he harden the heart of Pharoah to refuse freeing the Hebrews?

I'm not sure that I've asked that question verbatim but I have certainly challenged the position of believers who think that they are saved because of some virtue within them that is absent in unbelievers.

 

[Tree of Life]

So then, man can resist God's grace.

More scriptural proof:

Matt 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem! She who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, yet you were not willing!

Man can resist the grace of God as long as God allows this resistance. But when God chooses to effectively call a person to salvation this call is irresistible.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 11:7 - What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[bhsmte]

Sorry about the jargon. By "moral life in the flesh" I mean a moral life from man's perspective. A moral life from the outside without taking into account motivations, desires, passions, etc... Things that are invisible and known only to a person's own mind.

By "hearing the heart" I mean communicating with the thoughts, motivations, desires, passions, and will of the person. Things that are invisible but can be communicated through words.

Isn't a visual moral life, just a by product of how each person is motivated inside their own psyche, to live a moral life?

 

[Tree of Life]

Isn't a visual moral life, just a by product of how each person is motivated inside their own psyche, to live a moral life?

Not necessarily. And this is where Christianity departs from most other worldviews. From a Christian perspective, moral life has to do primarily with the heart - what a person loves, what motivates a person, what a person finds beautiful, what a person trusts, what a person hates, etc... Two people can have identical behavior but dramatically different hearts. For instance, two people can both give 10% of their income to the poor. One person does it because of a love for God, a love for people, and compassion. The other person does it out of a sense of pride, obligation, and self-righteousness. In the eyes of God the former man is acceptable and the latter is sinful even though their behavior is identical.

 

[bhsmte]

Not necessarily. And this is where Christianity departs from most other worldviews. From a Christian perspective, moral life has to do primarily with the heart - what a person loves, what motivates a person, what a person finds beautiful, what a person trusts, what a person hates, etc... Two people can have identical behavior but dramatically different hearts. For instance, two people can both give 10% of their income to the poor. One person does it because of a love for God, a love for people, and compassion. The other person does it out of a sense of pride, obligation, and self-righteousness. In the eyes of God the former man is acceptable and the latter is sinful even though their behavior is identical.

When you say "heart" I am assuming you are talking about emotional reasons one chooses to do something.

How do you know, atheists do not choose to live moral lives or give money to the poor, because of deep emotional feelings they have? You talk as though, Christians have some monopoly, on doing things for deep emotional reasons that are specific to us all.

IMO, our behavior is a byproduct of our psyche and we are all driven to certain behavior because of our individual psychological needs and psyche.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

Man can resist the grace of God as long as God allows this resistance. But when God chooses to effectively call a person to salvation this call is irresistible.

quote]

We know from scripture that God wants all men to be saved.

If not all men are saved, it is due to man's will, not God's.

God chose to create free creatures capable of love. Without free will, love is impossible.

 

[Tree of Life]

When you say "heart" I am assuming you are talking about emotional reasons one chooses to do something.

You don't have to assume. I've told you my meaning. By heart I mean our affections, trusts, motivations, and commitments.

How do you know, atheists do not choose to live moral lives or give money to the poor, because of deep emotional feelings they have? You talk as though, Christians have some monopoly, on doing things for deep emotional reasons that are specific to us all.

I do not know the specifics of the heart of any other man. I am simply persuaded that my own heart is sinful. My own motivations, trusts, affections, and commitments are crooked. I am sinful to the heart and in need of the grace of God. But God's word does assure me that all of humanity is in the same boat as me.

But if you think that you are perfectly upright in your motivations, affections, commitments, etc... then I suppose I can't argue with you. Take that up with the divine.

 

[bhsmte]

You don't have to assume. I've told you my meaning. By heart I mean our affections, trusts, motivations, and commitments.



I do not know the specifics of the heart of any other man. I am simply persuaded that my own heart is sinful. My own motivations, trusts, affections, and commitments are crooked. I am sinful to the heart and in need of the grace of God. But God's word does assure me that all of humanity is in the same boat as me.

But if you think that you are perfectly upright in your motivations, affections, commitments, etc... then I suppose I can't argue with you. Take that up with the divine.

My issue is, you talk as though only people of faith perform acts out of deep feelings that are beyond the surface. And, since you can not get into the specifics of the heart of another man, how can you claim people of faith are relying on their heart and non-believers are not.

This is not atypical of some Christians who try and explain why believers are special in some way. They search for explanations that seem to make believers in touch with their heart, but then they contradict themselves when asked to explain. Bottom line, we all act out of deep feelings at times (or heart, whatever you want to call it) and Christians don't have a monopoly on this type of behavior.

Take it up with the divine? What divine are you referring to?

 

[Tree of Life]

My issue is, you talk as though only people of faith perform acts out of deep feelings that are beyond the surface. And, since you can not get into the specifics of the heart of another man, how can you claim people of faith are relying on their heart and non-believers are not.

This is not atypical of some Christians who try and explain why believers are special in some way. They search for explanations that seem to make believers in touch with their heart, but then they contradict themselves when asked to explain. Bottom line, we all act out of deep feelings at times (or heart, whatever you want to call it) and Christians don't have a monopoly on this type of behavior.

Take it up with the divine? What divine are you referring to?

All behavior is from the heart. All people, believers and nonbelievers behave from their hearts. Upright behavior comes from a heart that loves God. Sinful behavior comes from a heart that loves self. But a piece of behavior can be outwardly identical and come from very different hearts.

 

[bhsmte]

All behavior is from the heart. All people, believers and nonbelievers behave from their hearts. Upright behavior comes from a heart that loves God. Sinful behavior comes from a heart that loves self. But a piece of behavior can be outwardly identical and come from very different hearts.

Upright behavior only comes from a heart that believes in a God? This would mean a non-believer is not capable of "upright" behavior in your opinion.

This type of judgmental thinking, is one of my issues with Christianity in general. And by the way, do you have objective evidence to support your claim, or is it only based on your faith and absent objective evidence?

 

[Tree of Life]

Upright behavior only comes from a heart that believes in a God? This would mean a non-believer is not capable of "upright" behavior in your opinion.

This is correct. Man cannot be good apart from proper relation to his creator.

This type of judgmental thinking, is one of my issues with Christianity in general.

What do you mean by judgmental thinking?

And by the way, do you have objective evidence to support your claim, or is it only based on your faith and absent objective evidence?

Which claim?

 

[bhsmte]

This is correct. Man cannot be good apart from proper relation to his creator.

How do you know man can not be good by being a non-believer?

What do you mean by judgmental thinking?

Judging that man can not act in an "upright manner" or be " good without believing in your God? That is called, judging someone, based on your personal beliefs and not their actual behavior.

Which claim?

The claims above. Do you have any objective verifiable evidence to support your claims, or do you simply believe them, because that is what scripture tells you?

 

[Tree of Life]

How do you know man can not be good by being a non-believer?

I know my own heart to be sinful and I trust the Bible to be the word of God. The Bible says that the heart of man is sinful.

Judging that man can not act in an "upright manner" or be " good without believing in your God? That is called, judging someone, based on your personal beliefs and not their actual behavior.

I am making a judgment based on my faith in the scriptures. But this judgement is more of a discernment than a judicial judgment. I do not exact punishment on people or condemn people like a judge in a court room would. I don't treat people any differently. In that sense I do not judge others.

The claims above. Do you have any objective verifiable evidence to support your claims, or do you simply believe them, because that is what scripture tells you?

I'm not sure what would qualify as objective, verifiable evidence for you. Could you give an example of what you're looking for?

 

[bhsmte]

I know my own heart to be sinful and I trust the Bible to be the word of God. The Bible says that the heart of man is sinful.


I am making a judgment based on my faith in the scriptures. But this judgement is more of a discernment than a judicial judgment. I do not exact punishment on people or condemn people like a judge in a court room would. I don't treat people any differently. In that sense I do not judge others.



I'm not sure what would qualify as objective, verifiable evidence for you. Could you give an example of what you're looking for?

I think you know what objective evidence is, but let me put the question another way.

Is there any chance, that you are wrong in your beliefs and non-believers can act in an "upright" fashion, just as believers can?

In other words, you are clearly basing your claims on your personal interpretation of scripture. Can your interpretations be wrong?

 

[Tree of Life]

Is there any chance, that you are wrong in your beliefs and non-believers can act in an "upright" fashion, just as believers can?

It's certainly possible that I'm wrong. Of course, I don't believe that I'm wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't believe what I believe.

In other words, you are clearly basing your claims on your personal interpretation of scripture. Can your interpretations be wrong?

My interpretations can certainly be wrong but I wouldn't call my interpretations "personal". I'm a member of a whole church of people that hold the same interpretations. I'm also a member of a long standing tradition that holds the same interpretations. I would be very wary of any interpretations that are strictly personal.

 

[bhsmte]

It's certainly possible that I'm wrong. Of course, I don't believe that I'm wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't believe what I believe.



My interpretations can certainly be wrong but I wouldn't call my interpretations "personal". I'm a member of a whole church of people that hold the same interpretations. I'm also a member of a long standing tradition that holds the same interpretations. I would be very wary of any interpretations that are strictly personal.

Sure, you are a group of one denomination of many, that just so happen to have a boatload of other denominations that disagree with your groups interpretations.

 

[True Scotsman]

"Philosophical" meaning that I hold a degree in philosophy and so have some familiarity with philosophical issues and discourse.

"Calvinist" meaning that I generally agree with reformed systems of theology and confessions.

"Christian" meaning that I confess that Jesus is Lord of all peoples and nations and is the only mediator between God and man.

If you ever wanted to ask a philosopher, calvinist, or Christian anything...

Hi Tree of Life,

My question is: Before God created anything distinct from himself was he just a consciousness or did he have a physical presence as well?

Thanks,

Robert

 

[Tree of Life]

Hi Tree of Life,

My question is: Before God created anything distinct from himself was he just a consciousness or did he have a physical presence as well?

Thanks,

Robert

Robert

As I understand it, there is nothing about God that is necessarily physical. He created the physical world and he became physically manifest in Christ but there is nothing that would lead me to believe that God had any sort of physical existence before creation. The concept of creation refers to the beginning of the physical world and of all that is not God. Before creation there was nothing physical. At least as far as what's been revealed in Scripture.