Ask a Philosophical Calvinist Christian

[Tree of Life]

"Philosophical" meaning that I hold a degree in philosophy and so have some familiarity with philosophical issues and discourse.

"Calvinist" meaning that I generally agree with reformed systems of theology and confessions.

"Christian" meaning that I confess that Jesus is Lord of all peoples and nations and is the only mediator between God and man.

If you ever wanted to ask a philosopher, calvinist, or Christian anything...

 

[bhsmte]

"Philosophical" meaning that I hold a degree in philosophy and so have some familiarity with philosophical issues and discourse.

"Calvinist" meaning that I generally agree with reformed systems of theology and confessions.

"Christian" meaning that I confess that Jesus is Lord of all peoples and nations and is the only mediator between God and man.

If you ever wanted to ask a philosopher, calvinist, or Christian anything...

If you were around two people for a period of time and never discussed faith beliefs, could you tell the difference if one agreed Jesus was lord and the other didn't? If so, how could you tell the difference?

 

[Received]

Why Calvinism?

 

[Tree of Life]

If you were around two people for a period of time and never discussed faith beliefs, could you tell the difference if one agreed Jesus was lord and the other didn't? If so, how could you tell the difference?

Maybe. Maybe not. Faith surely manifests itself in behavior. For instance, one who confesses Christ would probably be a member of a church. This would certainly tell me something. Also one who confesses Christ should ultimately show an awareness of their sin and a humble repentance of sin. But some of these virtues can seem to appear in unbelievers.

But I couldn't make a judgment call until I heard the person's heart and beliefs.

 

[Tree of Life]

Why Calvinism?

Upon studying the scriptures and reading the systems and formulations of many teachers and theologians I believe that Calvin and his ilk apprehend the Bible most accurately.

 

[bhsmte]

Maybe. Maybe not. Faith surely manifests itself in behavior. For instance, one who confesses Christ would probably be a member of a church. This would certainly tell me something. Also one who confesses Christ should ultimately show an awareness of their sin and a humble repentance of sin. But some of these virtues can seem to appear in unbelievers.

But I couldn't make a judgment call until I heard the person's heart and beliefs.

What does it tell you about a person, if they are a member of a church, in regards to living a moral, upstanding life vs someone who does not belong to a church?

 

[Tree of Life]

What does it tell you about a person, if they are a member of a church, in regards to living a moral, upstanding life vs someone who does not belong to a church?

Prima facie it tells me nothing more than the information you've given. I simply know that they're a member of a church and that the have a moral life in the flesh.

 

[bhsmte]

Prima facie it tells me nothing more than the information you've given. I simply know that they're a member of a church and that the have a moral life in the flesh.

They have a moral life in the flesh because they are a member of church?

Please explain.

 

[Tree of Life]

They have a moral life in the flesh because they are a member of church?

Please explain.

I'm sorry. Maybe I misunderstood your question. Just because someone is a member of the church doesn't mean that they live morally. If a person is a member of a church and if a person lives morally then that tells me nothing more than that they are a member of a church and live morally (at least in the flesh).

 

[Tree of Life]

I think your question might be: what does church membership tell me about someone's moral integrity?

 

[catholichomeschooler]

"Philosophical" meaning that I hold a degree in philosophy and so have some familiarity with philosophical issues and discourse.

"Calvinist" meaning that I generally agree with reformed systems of theology and confessions.

"Christian" meaning that I confess that Jesus is Lord of all peoples and nations and is the only mediator between God and man.

If you ever wanted to ask a philosopher, calvinist, or Christian anything...

If God wills that all men be saved, then, unless you are a universalist, you must admit that God permits us to reject him.

This means that irresistible grace is false.


Agreed?

 

[bhsmte]

I think your question might be: what does church membership tell me about someone's moral integrity?

Absent any other knowledge about a person's life, what would a person who is a church member, vs someone who was not a church member, tell you about their moral integrity?

 

[Tree of Life]

Absent any other knowledge about a person's life, what would a person who is a church member, vs someone who was not a church member, tell you about their moral integrity?

Not much if anything. Depending upon which church this person was a member of it might tell me that their moral life has some oversight from men who have proven their moral integrity.

 

[Tree of Life]

If God wills that all men be saved, then, unless you are a universalist, you must admit that God permits us to reject him.

This means that irresistible grace is false.


Agreed?

I disagree. Your argument seems to be:

1. Men reject God only by God's permission.
2. Therefore the doctrine of irresistible grace is false.

I agree with your premise but I believe it establishes the doctrine of irresistible grace. Whether or not men embrace God or reject God is ultimately in God's control. Therefore God's saving grace is irresistible.

I'm not sure how you think that your conclusion follows from your premise.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

I disagree. Your argument seems to be:

1. Men reject God only by God's permission.
2. Therefore the doctrine of irresistible grace is false.

I agree with your premise but I believe it establishes the doctrine of irresistible grace. Whether or not men embrace God or reject God is ultimately in God's control. Therefore God's saving grace is irresistible.

I'm not sure how you think that your conclusion follows from your premise.

If God wants all men to be saved, then all men will be saved if his grace is irresistible.

God must allow men to choose to reject his grace unless you believe in universal salvation.

 

[Tree of Life]

If God wants all men to be saved, then all men will be saved if his grace is irresistible.

God must allow men to choose to reject his grace unless you believe in universal salvation.

When we're talking about the will of God we can be talking about a few different things.

God has a prescriptive, moral will. He desires that all would repent. He desires that all would obey his commands. He desires that all would be faithful to their spouses and tell the truth. This will can be violated by the free decisions of men. This is otherwise known as the law of God.

Then there is God's decretive will. God desired to create the universe. He desired to save sinners by the blood of Jesus. He desired to reveal his son. He desires to bring the saints to completion in glory. He desires to be glorified in judgment and salvation. He desires to govern all history and human behavior to bring about his glory, the revelation of his Son, and the salvation of his church. This will cannot be violated by man's free decision. It establishes man's decisions. This is God's sovereign governance over all history.

God desires for all men to be saved in a prescriptive way, not in a decretive way. If God decreed that all men would be saved then they surely would be.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Prima facie it tells me nothing more than the information you've given. I simply know that they're a member of a church and that the have a moral life in the flesh.

Maybe. Maybe not. Faith surely manifests itself in behavior. For instance, one who confesses Christ would probably be a member of a church. This would certainly tell me something. Also one who confesses Christ should ultimately show an awareness of their sin and a humble repentance of sin. But some of these virtues can seem to appear in unbelievers.

But I couldn't make a judgment call until I heard the person's heart and beliefs.

Your answer session might be more effective if you avoid talking in Christian jargon.

So my "question" is: Please explain this jargon.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

When we're talking about the will of God we can be talking about a few different things.

God has a prescriptive, moral will. He desires that all would repent. He desires that all would obey his commands. He desires that all would be faithful to their spouses and tell the truth. This will can be violated by the free decisions of men. This is otherwise known as the law of God.

Then there is God's decretive will. God desired to create the universe. He desired to save sinners by the blood of Jesus. He desired to reveal his son. He desires to bring the saints to completion in glory. He desires to be glorified in judgment and salvation. He desires to govern all history and human behavior to bring about his glory, the revelation of his Son, and the salvation of his church. This will cannot be violated by man's free decision. It establishes man's decisions. This is God's sovereign governance over all history.

God desires for all men to be saved in a prescriptive way, not in a decretive way. If God decreed that all men would be saved then they surely would be.

You are making my case for me.

Not all men are saved, even though this is what God would prefer.

Whose fault is it when a man goes to Hell?

 

[Tree of Life]

Your answer session might be more effective if you avoid talking in Christian jargon.

So my "question" is: Please explain this jargon.

Sorry about the jargon. By "moral life in the flesh" I mean a moral life from man's perspective. A moral life from the outside without taking into account motivations, desires, passions, etc... Things that are invisible and known only to a person's own mind.

By "hearing the heart" I mean communicating with the thoughts, motivations, desires, passions, and will of the person. Things that are invisible but can be communicated through words.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not all men are saved, even though this is what God would prefer.

God "prefers" universal salvation only in a prescriptive sense. He does not prefer it decretively.

Whose fault is it when a man goes to Hell?

Both man and God. Man is condemned because of his sin. God condemns a man for his sin.