Ask a Complicated Ecumenical Existentialist Universalist Christian Stuff

[Ana the Ist]

We're getting deep here, but I'd say that the reason someone would believe something primarily to make them happy and then still wants to validate his beliefs is seeking to do so because part of him secretly believes that truth is more important than happiness. Or else what would motivate him, if it's all about being happy?

Well...reality isn't as simple as the dichotomy I presented. Im sure there are shades of in-between.

I was just curious of what you valued more...happiness or truth. You say happiness, but a blissfully ignorant happiness...not a stubborn blinders-on happiness.

 

[Received]

Well...reality isn't as simple as the dichotomy I presented. Im sure there are shades of in-between.

I was just curious of what you valued more...happiness or truth. You say happiness, but a blissfully ignorant happiness...not a stubborn blinders-on happiness.

Just to make things even more complicated, I think happiness and truth go hand in hand. Let me quote you something super duper fascinating by Nietzsche:

This unconditional will to truth—what is it? Is it the will not to allow oneself to be deceived? Or is it the will not to deceive? For the will to truth could be interpreted in the second way, too—if only the special case "I do not want to deceive myself" is subsumed under the generalization "I do not want to deceive." But why not deceive? But why not allow oneself to be deceived?

Note that the reasons for the former principle belong to an altogether different realm from those for the second. One does not want to allow oneself to be deceived because one assumes it is harmful, dangerous, calamitous to be deceived. In this sense, science would be a long-range prudence, a caution, a utility; but one could object in al fairness: How is that? Is wanting not to allow oneself to be deceived really less harmful, less langerous, less calamitous? What do you know in advance of the character of existence to be able to decide whether the greater advantage is on the side of the unconditional mistrust or of the unconditionally trusting?

[...]

But you will have gathered what I am driving at, namely, that it is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests—that even we seekers after knowledge today, we godless anti-metaphysicians still take our fire, too, from the flame lit by a faith that is thousands of years old, that Christian faith which was also the faith of Plato, that God is the truth, that truth is divine.—But what if this should become more and more incredible, if nothing should prove to be divine any more unless it were error, blindness, the lie—if God himself should prove to be our most enduring lie?— The Gay Science​

I'm the dude who still believes that "truth is divine," i.e., that truth leads to happy places. If this isn't the case (if truth ultimately isn't optimistic, which for the theist can easily be so because God created the universe and has, hopefully, a good intention for it all in the end), "why not deceive?" It's only in an atheistic universe, or (more trickily validated) a universe without God but one where truth ultimately leads to great places (without God you can't really say the truth leads anywhere beyond its immediate context), where the question of dividing truth from happiness is possible. Because with theism, there is something tied up in truth that is godly, and the godly, after all, is what should make you the most happy, should be happiness.

 

[agua]

Agua...I'm not speaking about every belief you hold. Merely a belief in god. It may surprise you that I recently had a very very long conversation with someone on here who believes in "everlasting life" because he finds the alternative "depressing".

To be honest, I can't make heads or tails of the passage you're quoting. How could you not be "of this world"....? If you're not "of this world"...then what in the world are you doing here?

I was specifically talking about believing Yahweh ( being Christian ) and the "unhappy" consequences of this. I do accept that many people want to believe because of emotional highs etc. but suggest this type of belief isn't strong and likely to fail if it doesn't progress.

Once a person is born again they enter the family of Yahweh which concentrates on eternal matters such as salvation, godliness, the Gospel message, and spiritual warfare etc. and not the usual world matters such as survival, materialism, flesh pleasures etc. The Chistian is considered to be living in the World but not part of it ie. have different goals/desires. The World is considered to be in enmity with Yahweh and under the sway of Satan.

Joh 17:15-16 KJV I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. (16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


1Jn 2:15-16 KJV Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I was specifically talking about believing Yahweh ( being Christian ) and the "unhappy" consequences of this. I do accept that many people want to believe because of emotional highs etc. but suggest this type of belief isn't strong and likely to fail if it doesn't progress.

Once a person is born again they enter the family of Yahweh which concentrates on eternal matters such as salvation, godliness, the Gospel message, and spiritual warfare etc. and not the usual world matters such as survival, materialism, flesh pleasures etc. The Chistian is considered to be living in the World but not part of it ie. have different goals/desires. The World is considered to be in enmity with Yahweh and under the sway of Satan.

Joh 17:15-16 KJV I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. (16) They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.


1Jn 2:15-16 KJV Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

It would seem then, that your god has misplaced you...why bring you here at all?

And do tell...what are these "unhappy consequences" of being christian? Would you say that they result in striving to be what you cannot be?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Just to make things even more complicated, I think happiness and truth go hand in hand. Let me quote you something super duper fascinating by Nietzsche:

This unconditional will to truth—what is it? Is it the will not to allow oneself to be deceived? Or is it the will not to deceive? For the will to truth could be interpreted in the second way, too—if only the special case "I do not want to deceive myself" is subsumed under the generalization "I do not want to deceive." But why not deceive? But why not allow oneself to be deceived?

Note that the reasons for the former principle belong to an altogether different realm from those for the second. One does not want to allow oneself to be deceived because one assumes it is harmful, dangerous, calamitous to be deceived. In this sense, science would be a long-range prudence, a caution, a utility; but one could object in al fairness: How is that? Is wanting not to allow oneself to be deceived really less harmful, less langerous, less calamitous? What do you know in advance of the character of existence to be able to decide whether the greater advantage is on the side of the unconditional mistrust or of the unconditionally trusting?

[...]

But you will have gathered what I am driving at, namely, that it is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests—that even we seekers after knowledge today, we godless anti-metaphysicians still take our fire, too, from the flame lit by a faith that is thousands of years old, that Christian faith which was also the faith of Plato, that God is the truth, that truth is divine.—But what if this should become more and more incredible, if nothing should prove to be divine any more unless it were error, blindness, the lie—if God himself should prove to be our most enduring lie?— The Gay Science​

I'm the dude who still believes that "truth is divine," i.e., that truth leads to happy places. If this isn't the case (if truth ultimately isn't optimistic, which for the theist can easily be so because God created the universe and has, hopefully, a good intention for it all in the end), "why not deceive?" It's only in an atheistic universe, or (more trickily validated) a universe without God but one where truth ultimately leads to great places (without God you can't really say the truth leads anywhere beyond its immediate context), where the question of dividing truth from happiness is possible. Because with theism, there is something tied up in truth that is godly, and the godly, after all, is what should make you the most happy, should be happiness.

Fair enough...

I suppose I'd say that I'm the dude who believes truth leads to truth...and happiness is in whatever you find it in. They need not intersect at all for me.

 

[agua]

It would seem then, that your god has misplaced you...why bring you here at all?

And do tell...what are these "unhappy consequences" of being christian? Would you say that they result in striving to be what you cannot be?

I'd be happy to have this discussion with you but it seems you are having it for me, with yourself.

If you'd like to reframe this post we can have a discussion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'd be happy to have this discussion with you but it seems you are having it for me, with yourself.

If you'd like to reframe this post we can have a discussion.

I'm sorry...you said a couple things which got my attention.

1. This is satan's world.

2. Being a christian has unhappy consequences.

So, naturally, I'm curious why a "good" god would place you in satan's world...instead of his own. I'm also curious about what the negative consequences of being christian are....it sounds awful, but I am curious.

 

[agua]

I'm sorry...you said a couple things which got my attention.

1. This is satan's world.

2. Being a christian has unhappy consequences.

So, naturally, I'm curious why a "good" god would place you in satan's world...instead of his own. I'm also curious about what the negative consequences of being christian are....it sounds awful, but I am curious.

Ok thanks for accepting my request I appreciate it.

1. Firstly this World only became Satan's domain after Adam sinned which inflicted the ransom. This leads into a much longer explanation of the sequence of events and I won't continue unless you ask specific questions ( I hate making unecessary long posts when people don't reuest them ) So in short Yahweh placed us in a good World which became Satan's after we sinned.

2. I'm sure you know of the extreme negative consequences inflicted upon the first Christian Apostles as well as earlier believers.( Hebrews 11 has some brief accounts ) and even today many Christians are killed and mistreated simply because of their faith in Eastern countries. In the Western World we're much less physically attacked but as the Christian matures we find the spiritual battle is Worldwide and constant. This part is difficult to explain to a non Christian because it involves Spirit critters and spirits in humans that don't necessarily leave tangible evidence ie. I'm not about to give you my personal experiences as evidence. The bottom line is that if the Christian is able to live a peaceful unaffected life in this World something is amiss. There's also the problem that Satan also manipulates people by pretending to be good ( Christian ) and this is a particular area many Christians fail to recognise.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ok thanks for accepting my request I appreciate it.

1. Firstly this World only became Satan's domain after Adam sinned which inflicted the ransom. This leads into a much longer explanation of the sequence of events and I won't continue unless you ask specific questions ( I hate making unecessary long posts when people don't reuest them ) So in short Yahweh placed us in a good World which became Satan's after we sinned.

2. I'm sure you know of the extreme negative consequences inflicted upon the first Christian Apostles as well as earlier believers.( Hebrews 11 has some brief accounts ) and even today many Christians are killed and mistreated simply because of their faith in Eastern countries. In the Western World we're much less physically attacked but as the Christian matures we find the spiritual battle is Worldwide and constant. This part is difficult to explain to a non Christian because it involves Spirit critters and spirits in humans that don't necessarily leave tangible evidence ie. I'm not about to give you my personal experiences as evidence. The bottom line is that if the Christian is able to live a peaceful unaffected life in this World something is amiss. There's also the problem that Satan also manipulates people by pretending to be good ( Christian ) and this is a particular area many Christians fail to recognise.

Ok...

1. So you're being punished for something someone else did long ago. Just out of curiosity, is that fair or just in your opinion? Supposing you could live to 500 years old...would you punish the great great great etc grandson of someone who did wrong....because of what his ancestor did?

2. You're aware that virtually every faith in the world has people who hate it and have done harm to its followers regardless of what that faith is, right? This is nothing unique to christians.

 

[agua]

Ok...

1. So you're being punished for something someone else did long ago. Just out of curiosity, is that fair or just in your opinion? Supposing you could live to 500 years old...would you punish the great great great etc grandson of someone who did wrong....because of what his ancestor did?

The punishment we receive is the first desath ( and the curse upon creation ) but we still have the opportunity to reject Satan's way and choose Yahweh's. ( the same opportunity adam had ). All humans sin as some stage ie. no one is innocent but if we delve into the age of accountability this gets a little complicated. So even though we are subject to the first death because of adam we are only subject to the second by our own choices ie. we decide our fate, not Adam. The important kicker here is that this life is short ( like a drop in the ocean ) and eternity is the importance. Infinity is a difficult concept.

So yes I think it's just that I live my own life with the opportunity to decide to live forever, or not. Also remember there're genetic etc consequences to our grandparents behaviours which we can't blame anyone but them for. eg. I smoked when my Children were born and one had asthmatic problems when young. Ops I rambled some

2. You're aware that virtually every faith in the world has people who hate it and have done harm to its followers regardless of what that faith is, right? This is nothing unique to christians.

Yes. I don't see how this effects the Christian premise though ie. incredibilty through association isn't a valid argument imo. Also it's important to note Satan hates all humans, not just Christians, and the path to Christianity may start anywhere.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The punishment we receive is the first desath ( and the curse upon creation ) but we still have the opportunity to reject Satan's way and choose Yahweh's. ( the same opportunity adam had ). All humans sin as some stage ie. no one is innocent but if we delve into the age of accountability this gets a little complicated. So even though we are subject to the first death because of adam we are only subject to the second by our own choices ie. we decide our fate, not Adam. The important kicker here is that this life is short ( like a drop in the ocean ) and eternity is the importance. Infinity is a difficult concept.

So yes I think it's just that I live my own life with the opportunity to decide to live forever, or not. Also remember there're genetic etc consequences to our grandparents behaviours which we can't blame anyone but them for. eg. I smoked when my Children were born and one had asthmatic problems when young. Ops I rambled some



Yes. I don't see how this effects the Christian premise though ie. incredibilty through association isn't a valid argument imo. Also it's important to note Satan hates all humans, not just Christians, and the path to Christianity may start anywhere.

1. So...we agree that you believe you're paying for someone else's mistake? Or are you saying that we're all flawed in some way...and cannot avoid being "sinful"? Or both? I'm just gonna let you know ahead of time your answers will be real important because I'm going to relate them to your "drop in the ocean" comment.

2. Ok, my mistake. I thought you were making a special case for christians being different in this respect from everyone else...they aren't. Glad we agree on this.

 

[agua]

1. So...we agree that you believe you're paying for someone else's mistake? Or are you saying that we're all flawed in some way...and cannot avoid being "sinful"? Or both? I'm just gonna let you know ahead of time your answers will be real important because I'm going to relate them to your "drop in the ocean" comment.

Both; with the qualifier that we have the same prospect that Adam did.

2. Ok, my mistake. I thought you were making a special case for christians being different in this respect from everyone else...they aren't. Glad we agree on this.

Yes the only difference is the details of why etc. On this note though in the latter days ( prior to Jesus' return ) Christian persecution will increase dramatically if this is a distintion.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Both; with the qualifier that we have the same prospect that Adam did.



Yes the only difference is the details of why etc. On this note though in the latter days ( prior to Jesus' return ) Christian persecution will increase dramatically if this is a distintion.

Gotcha. So let's skip ahead to one of two things... cuz I'm still not sure which you believe...

Either I can revel in my sinful nature and accept god at my moment of dying and all is forgiven... or...

I must strive against my sinful nature and accept god to get into heaven. Heaven being someplace without sin.

As for the persecution, I'd say the reasons why change no matter what you believe...so again, this seems more of an aspect of human nature rather than anything special to christians.

 

[agua]

Gotcha. So let's skip ahead to one of two things... cuz I'm still not sure which you believe...

Either I can revel in my sinful nature and accept god at my moment of dying and all is forgiven... or...

I must strive against my sinful nature and accept god to get into heaven. Heaven being someplace without sin.

As for the persecution, I'd say the reasons why change no matter what you believe...so again, this seems more of an aspect of human nature rather than anything special to christians.

I think your question is very, how do you say, unreal. A person who revels in sin usually doesn't change in an instant. The second part is also, unreal, because the believer on accepting their sinfulness and repenting then goes through a process of regeneration which may not end before the first death. The kicker is that many people can "change" to suit circumstances but Yahweh knows their true motives and thinking as shown by Jesus in Matthew 7. Also Christians don't go to heaven, at all.

The special circumstances of Christian persecution is that it ends in eternal life, when endured to the end.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think your question is very, how do you say, unreal. A person who revels in sin usually doesn't change in an instant. The second part is also, unreal, because the believer on accepting their sinfulness and repenting then goes through a process of regeneration which may not end before the first death. The kicker is that many people can "change" to suit circumstances but Yahweh knows their true motives and thinking as shown by Jesus in Matthew 7. Also Christians don't go to heaven, at all.

The special circumstances of Christian persecution is that it ends in eternal life, when endured to the end.

Well...you've lost me then...your beliefs don't fall into any category of christianity I've encountered I'm afraid. You'll forgive me if I'm not really concerned with exploring them further.

If the special circumstances of christian persecution don't occur until after death (everlasting life) then we agree that, by all appearances at least...they're the same problems everyone else deals with while alive. Your original point has been made moot.

Your original point being this...

"I'd say from a Biblical Christian perspective that believing Yahweh for the cause of happiness usually results in a pseudo belief ie. being Christian brings much sorrow/trouble in this lifetime ..."

 

[agua]

Well...you've lost me then...your beliefs don't fall into any category of christianity I've encountered I'm afraid. You'll forgive me if I'm not really concerned with exploring them further.

Yes this is usual. Christianity isn't what most people think.

If the special circumstances of christian persecution don't occur until after death (everlasting life) then we agree that, by all appearances at least...they're the same problems everyone else deals with while alive. Your original point has been made moot.

Your original point being this...

"I'd say from a Biblical Christian perspective that believing Yahweh for the cause of happiness usually results in a pseudo belief ie. being Christian brings much sorrow/trouble in this lifetime ..."

Yes the special circumstances for Christians happens at the resurrection. As an aside the parable of the sower Matthew 13 explains some details of people who may choose chistianity for emotional purposes.

 

[BL2KTN]

And I hope you're not refusing to answer my question because you think I haven't answered your question, because my question above is an attempt to untangle the assumption that my question that originally spawned this disagreement isn't an answer to your question.

Asking a question in response to my questions provides me with zero information as to your beliefs, the point of the questions. It is like seeing a question about George Washington on a test and responding to it with a question about molecules. It is nonsense.

Answer the questions and I'll be happy to answer any you have. That you have avoided answering basic questions for page after page tells everyone what we already know:

You don't really believe in what you say. You defend it and you hang on to it, but you know it unravels under real scrutiny.

 

[bhsmte]

I think your question is very, how do you say, unreal. A person who revels in sin usually doesn't change in an instant. The second part is also, unreal, because the believer on accepting their sinfulness and repenting then goes through a process of regeneration which may not end before the first death. The kicker is that many people can "change" to suit circumstances but Yahweh knows their true motives and thinking as shown by Jesus in Matthew 7. Also Christians don't go to heaven, at all.

The special circumstances of Christian persecution is that it ends in eternal life, when endured to the end.

You seem to have some unique views. Where do your views differ from the traditional Christian views?

Lastly, how did you come to form your views?

 

[agua]

You seem to have some unique views. Where do your views differ from the traditional Christian views?

Lastly, how did you come to form your views?

You'll need to give me your understanding of traditional Christianity Bhsmte for me to answer the first question accurately. ( maybe give me some things you once believed as Christian etc ) A simple difference from traditional Christianity holds ( I think ) is the immortal soul/eternal conscious torment position, where I suggest we are mortal beings who inherit eternal life at the resurrection, or are destroyed. There're many other possibilities where I differ from traditional Chrstianity but the immortal soul doctrine has ramifications on many of them, and is problematic for consistancy imo.

I came to my views through persistant investigation and interrogation of the scriptures, keeping an open mind to the many different perspectives, and with much prayer. I also hold my beliefs accountable to personal experiences, which also opens another door of interrogation, and the way Jesus taught to identify lies/liars etc. In saying this I don't claim to have perfect doctrine, at all, and I'm constantly testing doctrine as instructed by Paul.

 

[Davian]

Just a little observation that can be scientifically validated here:

When I act like a smart alec to posters, it's only on the condition that they started it, and I try my hardest to keep any defensive smart alecery to the thread in which it's a defense from.

With the exception of people who really deserve it, like quatona or Davian.