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Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Non sequitur, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    ... is what I'm doing.

    (Clickbait for the win!)

    One of the things I've always found puzzling is the acceptance of deities (more specifically, theism).

    Since information (methods of perception, etc.) starts at our brains, everything after that is a conclusion drawn from said information.

    Even me saying that, and you thinking about it, did.

    Here are a few things I would say everyone would have to presuppose, in order to even have the conversation. If you disagree, please explain why:

    1) Stating any
    preexisting truths, facts or exclusions, first came from your brain.
    2) Superimposing something is comes from your brain.
    3) You can't "know" something, prior to being aware of it, and if you are, you are making
    unsubstantiated claims.
    4) Referencing something, after the fact, is of little value since you've already arrived at your position.
    5) Issues ("how do you know what you know?", etc) do not offer any solutions, but create problems outside the framework we are dealing with. Talking about what we don't/can't know gets us no closer to an answer of a question. Unanswerable questions are useless.

    Seeing as how this poses a circular problem, as far as a truth goes, any positive position arrived at is equally possible as any other.

    How is it possible that a Christian belief can be held as truth, given this?
     
  2. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

    Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

    And there are three varieties...

    Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
    Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
    Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

    I was brought up in the military and drug from town to town. The kids in these towns were very mean. As a stranger I was relentlessly picked on for being different.

    My parents would drop me off in Virginia where my grandparents owned a small farm. The farm animals were very kind. I would get to know them and would play with them. There were also the sounds of katy-dids, chickens, roosters, and of loving human fellowship. I hated to leave.

    At the Merrimac Pentecostal Holiness church the people would have altar services that would sometimes go in the wee hours of the morning. The old gentlemen would sit back in their pews and weep. And if they looked back to catch the amazed look in my eye they would point to all the souls laid out at the altar and weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!"

    With the mass and the energy there is life....

    Mass - Our body can come to life
    Intellect - Our mind can come to life
    Spirit - Our spirit man can come to life

    I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness church not because of the tongues, but because of the people, which were the finest I have ever met in my entire life. Pictured below is Dallas Linkous JR, which is probably the 'shoutingest' man I have ever met in my entire life. As a teenager I would put up hay with him and go with him to the revivals at night. Both him and his wife were tongue talking, shouting, happy type Pentecostals. The joy was there equally there at home as well as at work. Every one of the fruits of the spirit lamped within their lives like a great over heated pot belly stove. There was also a decency among the people like I have never seen. My grandfather was good friends with Dallas. In the 1950's they would have revivals that would go for weeks and early in the AM. Granny said that grandfather could worship the Lord until 2 AM and not have any trouble at all rising at 6 AM for work.

    I remember well as a young man Dallas coming behind me to pray with me at the alter, with tears running down his cheek and onto my neck. As a guy who did not like to be touched this was quite profound. At the end of that summer we had a good revival in which the Lord seemed there in a mighty way. On reading the book, Run Baby Run, by Nikki Cruise, I felt a voice telling me to put the book down. I paused, and then continued again to read. The voice said again, Put the book down. I slept in my Grandmothers living room on an old fold away cot by the open living room door. The Katydids seemed to be singing very loud that night. There in my Grandmothers clean linens I heard the Spirit speak again, "Where is all the stress, worry and hatred?" In which, upon examining my heart, there was nothing there but pure beauty. I thought to myself. "Oh my! I got exactly what those people got!" I would spend the rest of the summer rejoicing with the people and in revival until I went back to my city environment later that September.

    [​IMG]

    So, for me, my Christianity is based upon an experience rather than a mental mindset. I know these things are true because I have experienced them on a different level than intelligence.
     
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  3. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    This has nothing to do with intelligence.

    Your experiences are processed by your brain, and can't speak to the truth of them - only that you had them. You are operating post-interpretation.

    You still have the problem that I stated above, like/accept it or not.
     
  4. Acts2:38

    Acts2:38 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    Think of it this way:
    Instead of, "One of the things I've always found puzzling is the acceptance of deities"

    I would say, "One of the things I always find puzzling is the denial of evidence found, to believe in God."

    The law of Causality, the law of Biogenesis, the first and second laws of Thermodynamics, are all laws that rule in favor of a supreme being. These are laws that world agrees upon, yet they "deny" that there is a God.

    With all the technology we have today, no one can yet still prove that non life can create life. Dead matter cannot create living matter.

    Also, on top of scientific evidence, the bible has been found historically accurate and of the centuries upon centuries upon centuries of time the bible has been written, it is not contradictory of itself one little bit. People have tried to bring evidence of its contradictions but have been found wrong. It doesn't contradict at all with all the men that wrote in all the centuries of separation between them. This brings you to who the real author behind the scenes is, God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
     
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  5. NothingIsImpossible

    NothingIsImpossible Well-Known Member

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    I think its really the same no matter what someone is. For some they find what they know to be truth because they are more open to what they have been told as being true. Without causing this to be a "Gods real/Gods not real heres why!" thread....

    Some people just see proof that God is not real and the bible is fake. The evidence is there and they are set in their ways. Just as christians see the evidence that God is real and the bible is real and they are set in their ways. While I don't see to many non-christians have doubts about not believing, I do so many chrsitians who may have no doubt, then it leads to another and eventually they are so confused that they say they are not christian.

    Me? I had my doubts in my late teens. The internet would say "If God is real then why does.... <insert topic>?". It made me think. Then I'd see another question and it made me think too. I was a luke warm christians at that point, barely hanging onto my faith.

    Then once I studied more, matured more I realized those questions and doubts were inaccurate. I also realized there just isn't an answer for some of the questions people ask, like "What is the age of the earth since dinosaurs existed millions of years ago?". There is no clear answer. Though I am a young earth person (7,000 years or whatever it is). And more importantly this is why I learned faith is important. Getting into heaven is not about knowing or being able to have an answer. Its about having faith that what the bible said is true.

    For example when people say "Science says there was a big bang!", I doubt it and just accept its not true. Though however to be fair I do twist it a bit and sometimes say if God brought everything into existence from nothing, then technically it would have been a "big bang" suddenly. But that usually gets the response of "Who created God?". Which I just ignore because such a question I know the answer to and neither side will accept the other sides answers. Hence its as topic I avoid.

    I'm not to worried about if what I believe is really truth or not. I believe it as truth. If I am wrong then thats fine too. BTW not saying I will be wrong, just saying for sake of conversation.
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. - 1 Corinthians 2:13

    I must say, that if I did not experience these thing, I would not have believed in these things. I am operating post interpretation. I compare spiritual things with spiritual...

    Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

    As the opposite of mass is nothing in absolute zero, as the opposite of intelligence is ignorance, so the spiritual has its opposites as well...

    Spiritual z/d - z (absolute zero, laziness, cold, hatred) / d (darkness, fear, depression, greed, sorrow)

    "During church one day at the end of the month a second and very heavy snow fell. He could not wait to trudge his way to the peak, for his soul felt full and the morning sermon had opened his eyes to something. The minister had preached long and eloquently. His theme was that most of mankind did not respond to the call of God because they did not feel His lovingkindness." - The Calling of Robert Sayers Sheffey

    If there is a spiritual experience then the brain will re-process this over and over. This happened to Saint Paul, who would repeatedly give his testimony...

    1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:
    2 I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:
    3 Especially because I know thee to be expert in all customs and questions which are among the Jews: wherefore I beseech thee to hear me patiently.
    4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
    5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
    6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:
    7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
    8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
    9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth.
    10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.
    11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
    12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
    13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
    14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
    15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
    16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
    17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
    18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. - Acts 26

    And along with the testimony the key words... From darkness to light... From z/d to E/c2... As God is the God of all light and energy he desires each one to experience this spiritually for himself.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  7. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    There is no evidence that confirms nor denies non-life can create life. Since we can't list the things/ways that non-life could create life (unknowns), it does us no good (and seems illogical) to hold a belief about the possibility of conclusions drawn from it.

    What are some of those things that rule in favor, as opposed to accepting it as an option, of a supreme being?
     
  8. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    Ok.

    Do you see any problems with determining/knowing your current reality, if they were based on operating after-the-fact?
     
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  9. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    It sounds like, although I couldn't find yours, you are saying (mainly) either it's based on "evidence" or "set in their ways".

    Seeing as how that can't be used to determine the validity of anything, only your interpretation, why would that be acceptable?

    I'd think the nature of it being illogical would prevent any conclusion/belief to be drawn.
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting Berean through and through Supporter

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    Matter seems pretty stupid to me.

    Me, not being quite as stupid, decides
    I must be created from somewhere else.

    Science says that everything has a first cause.
    What caused (my self perceived) intelligence?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    I have studied philosophy including Socrates, Hume, and Kant... I know what you are getting at....

    Our mind organizes experiences in different ways. The mind (reason) and the senses both make important contributions to knowledge. Immanuel Kant’s reflection on Physics led him to develop a new theory of knowledge that combines rationalism and empiricism into a new synthesis called critical philosophy. Kant agrees with Hume that knowledge begins with experience, but disagrees to the experience sensual limitations. “Though our knowledge begins with experience, it does not follow that it rises out of experience. Just as a person wearing sunglasses sees things differently, so the human being sees things according to that structure.” It is therefore an important thing to study on things that paint life in dynamic perspective.

    Kant distinguishes the mind in two dimensions, sensibility and understanding. Sensibility is the minds way of receiving representation of things (intuition- insight), Understanding is how the mind actively thinks about those objects. Theories about the forms of intuition and the categories of the understanding lead to distinguish phenomena (appearances as filtered through our senses and understanding) from noumena (things themselves as they exist independently from the mind which we can never know). Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired.The emotions are the results of man’s filtered view on reality. If our perspective is dark then the whole man is darkened. If our perspective is light than the whole man is filled with light. Finding correct perspective therefore is as good as the correct sensory input… Watch what you put in!

    But Jesus Christ appeared to Paul....
    But Jesus Christ made himself known to me.

    All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. - Matthew 11:27
    All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. - Luke 10:22

    But... With a revelation all the filtered mental things go out the window. If God has made himself real to someone there is no need to think a whole lot about it, since the revelation is now a reality, and not the result of some filtered view on reality.
     
  12. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    Is virtue knowledge? Can it be taught?

    Plato's Meno is a dialogue in which Socrates and Meno discuss human virtue: whether or not it can be taught, whether it is shared by all human beings, and whether it is one quality or many.

    After discussion with Anytus, Socrates and Meno return to the subject of whether Virtue can be taught. "To sum up our enquiry," Socrates concludes, "the result seems to be that virtue is neither natural nor acquired, but an instinct given by God to the virtuous."

    I have often wondered, having read into Socrates, if he did not experience God, if things were not revealed of God to him, even though he had not profession of the Hebrew God.
     
  13. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    I experience there is God who is kind and quiet . . . not silent . . . and easily able to change me out of any sorts of cruel and nasty and naughty and dominating stuff of lusts and drives and anger and conceit . . . so I become gentle and kind and humble and caring, instead. And how He has changed me is a match with how the Bible says God changes a person through Jesus.

    For a while, as a kid, I was a gratuitous perpetual bully, then a religious goody-goody two-shoes conceited self-righteous screwball.

    Then I trusted Jesus to do what He wants with me. Before this, I could read the Bible and get very little, except some theories about how to love.

    But with Christ I started experiencing God changing me to be compassionate for wrong people, instead of criticizing them; and I have been becoming more and more naturally gentle and un-bossy and caring with hope for anyone, and interested in being mutually submissive and sensitive with anyone who can share tenderly and not get into control stuff and arguing. And Bible rules about how to relate in love helped me with this.

    But before Jesus I could read these love rules for how to relate, and not even realize they were there. God first had to make me quiet and gentle so I could be attentive to what He says and in prayer seek how He has been correcting me > Hebrews 12:4-11.

    And He proves Himself, how He can change our character so we become naturally loving the way the Bible says to become.
     
  14. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    That could be if it were so that there is nothing in existence except material stuff.

    But if there really are invisible and nonmaterial beings who can effect humans and what we feel and think and do . . . then a person can come to believe something because someone invisible effects that person to believe it.

    It is true that people believe in certain deities after someone they trust has told them those deities exist. Often the observable pattern is that a trusted person tells someone something, and then someone believes it.

    But the Bible says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2. The Bible is clear that Satan can effect people so they believe what is not true. We all were born with the ability to believe what is true and not even know the difference > any of us have done this . . . for example in believing a weather prediction which was not true. And a number of us have believed someone was really good to marry, but then later we found out otherwise . . . because of how our sin nature makes us able to fool our own selves and not know the difference. And there are wrong ways that humans believe things about Jesus; and after people get into problems because of how they fooled their own selves, these people can blame God and other people, and even let wrong things have them decide they do not believe in Jesus.

    But God does bring people to know Jesus, the way He wants us to trust in Him and love and obey Him . . . with one another as family. Believing is not by ourselves, in isolation, but true believing comes in how our Heavenly Father has us discovering how to be and relate and share as His family. So, it is not only about believing ideas and practices.

    His love with His almighty power effects our nature so we become loving more and more how Jesus has loved us. Because Jesus right inside us shares with us how He is, how He pleases our Father, and how He loves any and all people. We come to really know this, by growing in this. There are things a child can not know, except by first growing and developing so he or she can discover and love the way God has us loving.

    So, Christianity is not only about copy-cat ideas and practices. But we need how God proves Himself, by changing our character the way only He can, so we are more and more how Jesus loves and pleases our Father and has us relating as His family, and caring for and reaching with hope for anyone to become adopted with us :)
     
  15. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Newbie

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    Even with another human, you can know what someone else knows because he or she has told you so. For example, if you have never been to a certain place, but you accept the directions which a stranger tells you, then you can reach that place because of information someone else knew and then you knew because it was passed on to you.

    And God is quite able to know what is true. God knows if He raised Jesus from the dead or not. And He is able to personally communicate with each of us so we know :)
     
  16. NothingIsImpossible

    NothingIsImpossible Well-Known Member

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    Well I sort of go by both. Most of me goes by faith, but if I have evidence to back something up I go by that to in terms of being a christian. Such as my big bang thing.

    But I also use science to often back up my point that it is not always correct. When I see science is always changing its views on things throughout history, I say its obvious that man is not perfect and therefor science cannot be perfect in everything it claims. Such as the big bang. No one was around to see it, so its just theories about it happening. I mean they often use "Well if you look at X, Y and Z, you can see evidence of a big bang!". But that never convinces me of anything. Like recently with the gravity waves thing, they sound it may change how we look at things (yet again).

    Not saying I don't trust science. Alot of what science says is true. Shoot a arrow up in the air, it will come down. Crash your car at 100mph into something, your body continues to travel at that speed even if the car stopped. Heck computers are good at showing what science comes up with (more or less).

    To a non-christian we christians can seem illogical. How can we say the earth is 7,000 years old despite the fact science says otherwise. Seems to go against logic. But to be fair the reverse could also be said. For example I see where God has lead me in life and realize it wasn't luck or fate that brought made me who I am. It was Him. I mean I have the steering wheel, but Hes like my GPS that helps me make the right turns. If I miss a turn He tries to reroute me back to a better path.

    So on my end I see lots of evidence in favor of God. Just as on the other side they see lots of evidence that God does not exist. Though most admit they can't 100% prove it simply because its impossible to do if God is lets say in another dimension that we cannot see for example.
     
  17. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    How did you arrive at the conclusion that you must be created, without having to process events/things in your brain?
     
  18. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    What did you use to get a concept of what "knowledge", "phenomena" and an "intuition" is, other than your brain?
     
  19. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    Correct. But you can't arrive at the conclusion that there is or isn't without arriving at that conclusion, via your brain.

    Never said they couldn't. Just that they had to use their brain, first, to arrive at that.

    All known evidence points to our brain being the that that processes and interprets our reality. To even say otherwise is still using your brain. Same problem.

    This is only points to the issue of superimposing. Not sure why you say this.
     
  20. Non sequitur

    Non sequitur Kinda Well-Known Member

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    You know what they believe they know, not the reality of what they say they know.
     
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