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Ask a Christian philosopher a question

anonymous person

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So you think it is acceptable to deceive if it furthers your case?
Depends on the case I am attempting to further as I have intimated before. If my case or cause is protecting you who I have received under my roof from government agents who are seeking any and all atheists to round them up and torture them in an attempt to get them to convert to the government's ideology, then in that particular, specific context, I believe I would be obligated to deceive them if by virtue of the deception, a greater good i.e. your safety and security are secured over against the evil machinations of fallen men.
 
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Chris B

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If by sincere atheist, you intend to signify a person who will have an excuse when they stand before God for their unbelief, then yes, the epistle to the Christians in Rome written by the apostle Paul denies that such people could exist because God, being who He is, cannot hold someone accountable for failing to believe in Him if He had not given them sufficient light to make unbelief inexcusable.

That's what I gathered. So to a Christian, and to Paul in the bible, I cannot be a sincere atheist because, if sincere, I would recognize the existence of God.
Clear enough.
But as a sincere atheist my position is not that I will be able to justify my atheism before God, but that I will not have to, God not existing.
Yes, Paul makes people such as I out to be impressive moral monsters in Romans 1, on top of our just being in some sort of denial.
But I can look at nature and the night sky and, at the very least, see the clear possibility of a cold indifferent universe in contrast to one made by a conscious and benevolent deity.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Depends on the case I am attempting to further as I have intimated before. If my case or cause is protecting you who I have received under my roof from government agents who are seeking any and all atheists to round them up and torture them in an attempt to get them to convert to the government's ideology, then in that particular, specific context, I believe I would be obligated to deceive them if by virtue of the deception, a greater good i.e. your safety and security are secured over against the evil machinations of fallen men.
I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the case for Christianity. You think it acceptable to deceive others if it furthers that case?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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You get to make up your own facts now? Cool.

On a hunch, I googled "counterfactual with an impossible antecedent". Like I suspected, William Lane Craig's website is peppered with the phrase.

Looks like the hero worship of ole Willie continues...
 
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juvenissun

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Similar thing the bachelor means in bachelor degree. We still let married people get those. I wonder why.

Do you mean the word "philosophy" has two unrelated meanings? If so, what are they?
I have a Ph.D title. I do want to know what does the Ph. really represent.
 
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J. Bleize

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I don't know if my question fits the criteria but I would love an answer if you could give me one. I would like to know if the Holy Spirit grants us a talent and intends for us to use it, but only a way that is in accordance with His plan for us. And if He does grant us such a talent, does this talent require the human things that are used to develop it like hard work or motivation? Sometimes it feels as if God has given me gifts that I can't use on my own or can't develop in any way through human ways. For example, he grants me the ability to write stories that are considered entertaining by human standards, but that also carry a message of His love. When I try to write in another manner or out of my own knowledge, it goes horribly wrong and is misunderstood. When I let go of my own desires and needs and allow Him to work through me, it works out perfectly. The less involvement I have the better the story becomes. There is one particular verse that keeps going through my head, "Lean not on your own understanding, but trust in the Lord and he will direct your paths." That seems to be exactly what he is doing. Is this too good to be true and am I being lazy or is His Holy Spirit truly doing all the work for me so that I do not have to take matters into my own flawed hands?
 
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oi_antz

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That's what I gathered. So to a Christian, and to Paul in the bible, I cannot be a sincere atheist because, if sincere, I would recognize the existence of God.
Clear enough.
But as a sincere atheist my position is not that I will be able to justify my atheism before God, but that I will not have to, God not existing.
Yes, Paul makes people such as I out to be impressive moral monsters in Romans 1, on top of our just being in some sort of denial.
But I can look at nature and the night sky and, at the very least, see the clear possibility of a cold indifferent universe in contrast to one made by a conscious and benevolent deity.
Do you never worry that this cause for comfort is fleeting?

Edit: apologies, I said this before reading #289. I will try to remain disciplined. Naturally it interested me to help you think more about this.
 
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Chris B

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Do you never worry that this cause for comfort is fleeting?

Edit: apologies, I said this before reading #289. I will try to remain disciplined. Naturally it interested me to help you think more about this.


No trouble!
I have given the matter considerable thought, and have to stand where* I have the most quiet conscience. Yes I sam bettig my life and hypothetical afterlife on this.

What comfort is their in there being no God? I don't find any particular comfort in a gigantic and indifferent universe.
(Fascinating though it is... ) It's wiped out almost all the species we know of.
I just think it's what we've got. Done deal, I didn't get a vote on it.

*on the best evidence I can assemble, weighed as carefully as I know how... neither of which makes for absolute certainty, which I suspect is not available.
"When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" John Maynard Keynes.
 
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oi_antz

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No trouble!
I have given the matter considerable thought, and have to stand where* I have the most quiet conscience. Yes I sam bettig my life and hypothetical afterlife on this.

What comfort is their in there being no God? I don't find any particular comfort in a gigantic and indifferent universe.
(Fascinating though it is... ) It's wiped out almost all the species we know of.
I just think it's what we've got. Done deal, I didn't get a vote on it.

*on the best evidence I can assemble, weighed as carefully as I know how... neither of which makes for absolute certainty, which I suspect is not available.
"When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" John Maynard Keynes.
I hope the anonymous person is ok, that I would like to ask you a question to confirm my understanding of your position. Since you used the word conscience to suggest it gives you more peace (assuming this means that to believe that there is no God is a relief).. if that is what you mean, then it seems to me that you have chosen to resolve that discomfort by basically ignoring the problem. Would you agree that this is a true observation? My concern about this, is that since there is a moment in every person's life where we do finally lose our grip on it, and are left entirely in God's hands, would your conscience be at peace when you see Him? (Note: in my experience, the ability to confidently answer "yes" to this, comes and goes according as we exercise power over sin).
 
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bhsmte

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I hope the anonymous person is ok, that I would like to ask you a question to confirm my understanding of your position. Since you used the word conscience to suggest it gives you more peace (assuming this means that to believe that there is no God is a relief).. if that is what you mean, then it seems to me that you have chosen to resolve that discomfort by basically ignoring the problem. Would you agree that this is a true observation? My concern about this, is that since there is a moment in every person's life where we do finally lose our grip on it, and are left entirely in God's hands, would your conscience be at peace when you see Him? (Note: in my experience, the ability to confidently answer "yes" to this, comes and goes according as we exercise power over sin).

How can a person, be left in God's hands, if they don't feel a God exists?

You can certainly believe that, but the person that doesn't see any credibility in the story, is going to think otherwise.
 
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oi_antz

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How can a person, be left in God's hands, if they don't feel a God exists?
I mean that when the body dies, we no longer have any control over our life. Only God can have that control then, if He should so desire.
 
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bhsmte

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I mean that when the body dies, we no longer have any control over our life. Only God can have that control then, if He should so desire.

I highly doubt, that people that don't believe God exists, gives this assumption much thought.
 
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Chris B

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I hope the anonymous person is ok, that I would like to ask you a question to confirm my understanding of your position. Since you used the word conscience to suggest it gives you more peace (assuming this means that to believe that there is no God is a relief).. if that is what you mean, then it seems to me that you have chosen to resolve that discomfort by basically ignoring the problem. Would you agree that this is a true observation? My concern about this, is that since there is a moment in every person's life where we do finally lose our grip on it, and are left entirely in God's hands, would your conscience be at peace when you see Him? (Note: in my experience, the ability to confidently answer "yes" to this, comes and goes according as we exercise power over sin).

Ask away, but I think you have misunderstood my podstion, or I have misunderstood your original question:
"Do you never worry that this cause for comfort is fleeting?"
I took that to mean that you thought I was more comfortable with the idea of their being no God... this being a reason for my atheism and *from your perspective* at best only a very temporary and illusory shelter from God's existence and judgement.

My reply was *against* that, since in terms of intuitive comfort I find an indifferent universe less comforting.
(I'm an ex-theist: the idea of God existing is neither unthinkable nor repugnant: I just don't think it's true.)

This is where conscience, or being true to myself, comes in. Irrespective of what I would find more comfortable to believe, or more socially convenient, what am I more convinced is simply true?
I've met more than once (away from theology) the issue of holding to what was true when it was neither comfortable nor convenient became a noticeable pressure to betray my own standards.

"...and are left entirely in God's hands,"
Well, only if God exists. I'm not operating from such a paradigm, so the question of later meeting God does not really arise if I've already addressed my thinking on the issue of God existing or not existing.
You may have to shift into my mindset rather than a Christian one (just provisionally and hypothetically) to see how it stands.
"Will you be happy to explain to Odin, when you meet him," why you died without a sword in your hand?"
That's pretty much the equivalent framing of your meeting question, but coming from a firm Asatru perspective.

What have I ignored? I've got more time and depth on this area than most.
I can even note from Pauline writings a strand portraying God as *choosing* me to be an atheist, with me having no say in the matter. (Ephesians 1, Romans 9, )
But this is if Paul and the Bible are correct: not a settled starting point from which to build securely, unless that position and been settled separately.

Chris
 
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Chris B

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I mean that when the body dies, we no longer have any control over our life. Only God can have that control then, if He should so desire.

And if He exists. You are operating from your mindset, which is what almost all of us do almost all of the time.
In encountering other mindsets, that's where being even-handed about such, while still standing with one's own, requires some effort.
I am not thinking like a bad or unthinking Christian. I am operating from a thought-out atheistic world view.
From which perspective I do not have *any* life after I am dead, to be controlled or otherwise, though my brain is going to be helping with research at Oxford university.
 
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