Ask a Christian philosopher a question

[anonymous person]

I'm strolling along, reading different post and came across this one, and yes, it hit a nerve. The reason it hit a nerve is that for years even though I was seeing two different things, Christian beliefs on one hand and Jesus Christ on the other, I was unable to come to terms in how to reconcile the difference in what I was experiencing. What I felt I was seeing is that the two, Christianity and Christ, only occasionally cross paths, and to me hardly ever walk the same path. It was one of the hardest things I have every done, it took years to happen. But eventually I felt that to actually live in Christ I had to renounce the religion that bears in His name. I so hated doing that. It was incredibly hard to actually go through. Today, in hind site, I liken what I went through to the Buddhist saying "If you meet the Buddhist on the road, kill him". But I still have Christ in front of me!! That's all I need.

You should get out more. There are many more Christians than just those you encountered.

You should also remember the exhortation to never judge a worldview by its abuse.

 

[dlamberth]

You should get out more. There are many more Christians than just those you encountered.

You should also remember the exhortation to never judge a worldview by its abuse.

It's not abuse I talk about. It has more to do with making God a reality in one's life that I'm looking at.

Edited to add: It's interesting to me that with out any prompting on my part that you went right to abuse by Christians.

 

[Locutus]

So tell us, what is it that you are loathe to renounce for the sake of Christ?
Is it the bitterness and anger you have towards God for Him allowing someone close to you to die? Maybe a loved one perhaps?
What is it?

Delicious and cute. Like the 7 year old boy who imagines the reason his parents are fed up with one-sided conversations and having to set an extra place for dinner, is that they don't like his imaginary friend.

 

[anonymous person]

What kind of questions can I pose here? I'm an atheist

Welcone to the thread friend. I am glad you are here. You can ask whatever question you so desire as long as it complies with the forum rules.

 

[anonymous person]

Hmmm, where are the forum rules then before I blaspheme inadvertently. Lol

The three pinned threads at the top of all the threads in this sub-forum.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Welcone to the thread friend. I am glad you are here. You can ask whatever question you so desire as long as it complies with the forum rules.

Still waiting, Jeremy...

 

[anonymous person]

Sorry, can't see. On phone so maybe doesn't show or am just being dumb.

www.christianforums.com/threads/guidelines-for-all-discussion-and-debate-forums.7797810/

www.christianforums.com/threads/philosophy-of-religion-vs-general-apologetics.7832779/

www.christianforums.com/threads/philosophy-forum-statement-of-purpose.7864312/

 

[dlamberth]

I have a question. Here in Oregon Bundy and Company have taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. He says God told him to do it. Personally, I have my doubts. But when I hear that God told someone to do something, which isn't all that uncommon to hear, how am I suppose to take that?

 

[ecco]

I have a question. Here in Oregon Bundy and Company have taken over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. He says God told him to do it. Personally, I have my doubts. But when I hear that God told someone to do something, which isn't all that uncommon to hear, how am I suppose to take that?

If he has a gun, walk away, quickly.

 

[anonymous person]

thanks

You're welcome buddy!

 

[quatona]

How do you select parts of a previous post so I can answer them clearly in turn in my reply. Intersperse quoted I suppose I mean.

You want to write [ quote ] at the beginning of the quoted part and [ /quote ] at its end. (Without the blanks, of course.)

 

[anonymous person]

How do you select parts of a previous post so I can answer them clearly in turn in my reply. Intersperse quoted I suppose I mean.

If you want to quote multiple people's quotes, go to their quote and click on the +quote button.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Just to show off (no spaces required for demo): [quote]this is a test[/quote]

yields:

this is a test

 

[quatona]

Just to show off (no spaces required for demo):

this is a test

yields:

A miracle!! So God does exist?

 

[Mistavega]

If we're free, then how is God truly sovereign over all?

If God is sovereign over my choices, then how am I free?

If God isn't sovereign over my choices, then how is he really sovereign over all?

For either view being true the implications are less then palatable

 

[Breckmin]

If we're free, then how is God truly sovereign over all?

Sovereign means that GOD is the One Who does what He pleases. It also means that God is "in control" but not necessarily "controlling" us like puppets. IOW, you are a little creator in God's universe... but God is in control of your surrounding circumstances...and God as Owner of the universe has the absolute right to execute a sanctum flexibus of all of human history interacting with all human freewill.

If God is sovereign over my choices, then how am I free?

Freewill is NOT perfectly/exactly synonymous with "freedom." Freewill just means the ability to choose freely between two or more options. This doesn't mean that the options, however, aren't sometimes VERY limited based on circumstances of coercion. A person who is in bondage under captivity or slavery still has libertarian freewill... because freewill is "self-generated." They may choose between a lessor of two evils...but when you are discussing freewill you are discussing an "internal ability" and NOT having to do with external circumstances.

God allows your choices...God can remove the restraint of evil...God can allow you to be tempted by unclean deceiving spirits, etc. God can harden your heart by allowing you to harden your own heart through a series of your own bad choices and agenda. People often do not understand this process and wrongfully think "hardening your heart" means a removal of freewill. It doesn't. Scripture said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. The concision of God hardening someone's heart does not explain the process...but we can see the patterns in scripture of how God can remove His restraint on evil and allow someone to engage in a series of their own bad choices which hardens their own heart.

God interacts with all human freewill in a synergism of all circumstances including the natural order.
This is important to understand... in order to understand the compatiblist's argument and theology.

there is absolutely NO contradiction between God's omniscience and human freewill...as William of Ockham already explained in the 14th Century that God's omniscience and foresight is dependent upon what we will choose.
Also, if you wrongfully isolate on the end result...you will be ignoring the freewill decisions which take you to such end result. University profs wrongfully do this all the time.

If God isn't sovereign over my choices, then how is he really sovereign over all?

Your choices/decisions are self-generated when you have valid options to freely choose between them.
God's sovereignty is based on GOD doing what He pleases and being "in control." There are many things
which God can indeed control and still allow you to have freewill within a set of circumstances which God allowed or controlled many of the variables (the natural order, for instance). It doesn't mean that God isn't sovereign if He creates little creators in His universe. You are still accountable on judgement day.

For either view being true the implications are less then palatable

several questions like these (such as Divine freewill being compatible with omniscience) have already been resolved... but people are not generally familiar with the answers, however. (unless they are a Christian philosopher or a systematic theologian). God doing what He pleases (sovereignty) and being IN CONTROL is not diametrically opposed to us self-generating our ability to freely choose between options. Freewill is a necessity for love, genuine relationship, obedience and worship. God will judge freewill decisions someday and display His justice in eternity. Without freewill there is really no such thing as moral evil (sin). (or love, true worship, true obedience, or logical rewards).

 

[Breckmin]

it is also important to understand that freewill and salvation are two very distinct subjects. They can overlap but they are NOT the same subject.

 

[Mistavega]

"Sovereign means that GOD is the One Who does what He pleases. It also means that God is "in control" but not necessarily "controlling" us like puppets. IOW, you are a little creator in God's universe... but God is in control of your surrounding circumstances...and God as Owner of the universe has the absolute right to execute a sanctum flexibus of all of human history interacting with all human freewill."

I don't see any distinction at all between "being in control" and "not controlling something directly", if you're in control of something, then it's ultimately you that determines the outcomes, otherwise you weren't in control to begin with. If it's not us that determines the outcomes in our life, then who is? If its God, then it follows we're not free. Who determines the outcomes us or God?

So your definition of freedom is tantamount to say a game of chess. In Chess you are free to make a variety of moves, however you are constrained by the parameters of the rules in the game... Or to put this in philosophical terms there's only a range of possible worlds you can actualize by choosing.
Haha, Okay let's grant this.
So freedom for you resides in our innate ability to choose between possible worlds.
I could eat tacos for lunch tomorrow or I could reframe from eating tacos for lunch tomorrow.
Say I choose to eat tacos for lunch, was that my choice?
The thing is given gods foreknowledge he knew I was going to eat the tacos and it was part of his providential plan, given his sovereignty.
The crux of the issue is this, could I really have chosen a different possible world other than the one I chose? Could there have really been a possible world where I chose not to eat the tacos?
Since God is sovereign and he has a single plan there is only one possible world that is actual and it's the one in conjunction with his providential plan.
So this means that the "choice" between possibles worlds doesn't exist, because there is only one possible world, the one the sovereign God chooses to actualize.
Therefore, you can't chose between possibles worlds and if you can't choose between possible worlds, then freewill doesn't exist.
What your left with is actually an illusion of choice.

"Pharaoh hardened his own heart."
I beg to differ:
“But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he was not willing to let them go.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:27‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Actually all throughout Pharaohs, exchanges with Moses the bible says it's the lord that hardens Pharaohs heart.

 

[Mistavega]

Btw, there may very well be answers to this question, but perhaps there all inadequate.

 

[Mistavega]

Btw the issue of omniscience and freewill is not even really relevant to the discussion.

But sovereignty, omniscience and freewill are problematic in conjunction.