Ken
Well-Known Member
I agree that God must exercise justice. But if His foremost attribute was Justice, then He must temper justice with mercy and because of pure love, he must have mercy on us all equally or the scripture is false concerning 1 Corinthians 13.
Did God create out of justice, mercy or Love. What does Jesus describe the greatest virtue to be...Love
No, does not follow. (see above for requiring God to fit into the 1 Cor. 13 model) Where does the Bible say that God must have mercy on us all equally? Where does Paul say that 1 Cor. 13 must apply to God just as it applies to humans? We cannot possibly take into account all the factors that lead God to act as He does. Even granting that 1 Cor. 13 would apply to God, who is to say that God doesnt fulfill 1 Cor. 13 perfectly, and still operate as absolute Sovereign of the universe?
I am searching Calvinist doctrine to correspond to the nature and attributes of God and Love. Who else am I supposed to get clarity from on the Calvinist position if not Calvinist's. It seems that all questions, if not answered comprehensively right-away naturally turn into a question then anwer scenario.
I am glad for your questions. However, what it means to answer comprehensively right-away is going to vary, both between the questioner and the questionee : )
At any rate, there is no need for a failure to answer comprehensively right-away to result in a question and answer session. This may result from any number of other reasons.
I am not saying that I do or do not believe in TULIP, or Calvinism. Im on a path to try and study and understand the scriptures fully, as we are ask to do.
Agreed.
I would say that he could choose to save us all without prejudice. Why would he not want all of his children with him in paradise? Does glory mean more to God than Love and relationship.
I am not disputing the scripture that points toward limited atonment or total depravity, I am trying to discover how they all interconnect in love with a God that is love. This is a sincere question and searching heart.
I think the best thing you could do here is to patiently and thoughtfully work your way through Jonathan Edwards A Dissertation concerning the end for which God made the World. Its at http://www.ccel.org/e/edwards/works1/htm/iv.htm
Glory--By definition is: Exalted honor. So God values this over relationships and his very nature of Love. Are you saying He would rather be glorified (and all its benefits) in his works then to be loved by his creation (us) first.
The two are not mutually exclusive; the end/telos of Gods being glorified by His works is for humans to glorify Him by loving Him for the sake of who He is, for what He has done. The creations (humans in particular) only true fulfillment is to glorify God by loving Him forever, e.g. Augustines famous prayer Thou hast formed us for Thyself and our hearts are restless till they find their rest in thee. Gods greatest love is to love Himself, for this is Gods moral responsibility, for He is responsible to love that which is most pure and holy, which could be none other than Himself, and to love His creatures who exemplify these same traits, realizing that even these traits found in humans find their origin in none other than the Holy One of Israel. So when God loves His creatures for their holiness etc, He is in reality still loving Himself as He is the origin and end of all good.
Even I wish that all will be with the Lord in paradise. If I could give at least the means to everyone to have the opportunity equally to attain this salvation and state, because I love humanity, as it is Gods creation, would not God love all even more than I ever possibly could and give this opportunity for Loves sake.
We must never mistake ourselves for God (not that you are doing this exactly), or think that the way we would do something, versus the way God does this same thing, would be the right thing to do, implying and then impugning God for not doing it the way we would have done it, this nothing less than blasphemy, for it is to claim that we know better than the Sovereign Lord of the universe, and that we are standing in moral judgment over Him.
Quote:Yes, but as I have repeatedly said, God wants his Glory for most, and he deserves his Glory for most.
Can you support this in scripture that glory is more important to God than his beloved creations.
First, again, these two are not contrary or mutually exclusive of one another, nor should they be set against one another. The attainment of Gods glory through His beloved creations is just as important as is His creation glorying in Him.
However;
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
Isa 43:7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made."
Isa 46:13 I bring near my righteousness; it is not far off,
and my salvation will not delay;
I will put salvation in Zion,
for Israel my glory."
Isa 48:9-11 "For my name's sake I defer my anger,
for the sake of my praise I restrain it for you,
that I may not cut you off.
Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another."
cont.
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