Ask a Calvinist!

[Qoheleth]

I am searching Calvinist doctrine to correspond to the nature and attributes of God and Love. Who else am I supposed to get clarity from on the Calvinist position if not Calvinist's. It seems that all questions, if not answered comprehensively right-away naturally turn into a question then anwer scenario.

I am not saying that I do or do not believe in TULIP, or Calvinism. Im on a path to try and study and understand the scriptures fully, as we are ask to do.

God must chose who he will save because we are totally depraved (Spiritually dead).

I would say that he could choose to save us all without prejudice. Why would he not want all of his children with him in paradise? Does glory mean more to God than Love and relationship.

I am not disputing the scripture that points toward limited atonment or total depravity, I am trying to discover how they all interconnect in love with a God that is love. This is a sincere question and searching heart.

 

[theseed]

I would say that he could choose to save us all without prejudice. Why would he not want all of his children with him in paradise? Does glory mean more to God than Love and relationship.

This brings us back to your orginal question. Why? We know that God does not save everybody. Calvnists say that it is because he wants the full extent of his Glory to be shown throuh demonstrating the depths of his mercy and grace. Others say we are not totally dead to God's Spirit and can resist. And God does not do violence to this resistance.

So yes, God could save all, but he does not. God's glory comes before everthing else.

 

[Qoheleth]

Glory--By definition is: Exalted honor. So God values this over relationships and his very nature of Love. Are you saying He would rather be glorified (and all its benefits) in his works then to be loved by his creation (us) first.

Even I wish that all will be with the Lord in paradise. If I could give at least the means to everyone to have the opportunity equally to attain this salvation and state, because I love humanity, as it is Gods creation, would not God love all even more than I ever possibly could and give this opportunity for Loves sake.

Third, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). It is not simply that God "loves," but that He is Love itself. Love is not merely one of His attributes, but His very nature." ...The better we are acquainted with His love—its character, fulness, blessedness—the more will our hearts be drawn out in love to Him. Arthur W. Pink

 

[theseed]

Glory--By definition is: Exalted honor. So God values this over relationships and his very nature of Love. Are you saying He would rather be glorified (and all its benefits) in his works then to be loved by his creation (us) first.

Yes

Even I wish that all will be with the Lord in paradise. If I could give at least the means to everyone to have the opportunity equally to attain this salvation and state, because I love humanity, as it is Gods creation, would not God love all even more than I ever possibly could and give this opportunity for Loves sake.

Yes, but as I have repeatedly said, God wants his Glory for most, and he deserves his Glory for most.

God needed no reason to create us, and he needs no reason to save us. And there is no reason that he saves us--this is why he is gracious. In Rev. 4, it says that we were created simply for God's pleasure.

 

[Qoheleth]

Yes, but as I have repeatedly said, God wants his Glory for most, and he deserves his Glory for most.

Can you support this in scripture that glory is more important to God than his beloved
creations.

it says that we were created simply for God's pleasure.

Are you sure about this

God created man for good works. Ephesian 2: 10 Man is not here to do his own thing, but to do the work that God gives him to do.


God created man for fellowship. He created man, male and female, in His own image. Genesis 1:27

Each person is created for fellowship with God. 1 Corinthians 1:9

This fellowship was to be based on obedience. Genesis 2:15

God created man for eternal life. Ecclesiates 3:11

When man rebelled against God, he lost both his fellowship with God, and his eternal life. Genesis 3:4

Jesus came to restore us to life and fellowship. John 10:10

In God's presence alone can you find the joy and fillment you were created to experience. He alone can make you whole. Psalm 16:11

 

[theseed]

1)Of course God's glory is more important than anything

2)God is in fellowship with himself.

3)I have answered your questions, and you don't agree with the answers, and that is fine. But we can not argue about this as it is against forum rules for you to argue.

 

[Qoheleth]

1)Of course God's glory is more important than anything

From our perspective yes, we give all glory and honor to the Lord, but did God create man to his glory or for his glory?

2)God is in fellowship with himself.

Then the passages above and others tell us that God is only in fellowship with himself and in no way with his greatest creation?

If this were a debate, I would formulate my position. Im not sure that I understand this issue completely so I need to ask many indepth questions. There are many doctrines abroad and they all dont agree with each other. I am not saying you are right at I am right. I do have my own thoughts and opinions on it, but I do not claim to have the conclusive answers. I do thank you for helping me through this though.

 

[theseed]

Romans 9 (NASB)
20 On the contrary, who are you, (40) O man, who (41) answers back to God? (42) The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (43) patience vessels of wrath (44) prepared for destruction?

Revelation 4 (KJV)
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

[theseed]

From our perspective yes, we give all glory and honor to the Lord, but did God create man to his glory or for his glory?

Then the passages above and others tell us that God is only in fellowship with himself and in no way with his greatest creation?

If this were a debate, I would formulate my position. Im not sure that I understand this issue completely so I need to ask many indepth questions. There are many doctrines abroad and they all dont agree with each other. I am not saying you are right at I am right. I do have my own thoughts and opinions on it, but I do not claim to have the conclusive answers. I do thank you for helping me through this though.

If God is in fellowship with himself, then he does not need to fellowship with us.

And you can debate without having a position. You are debating very basic doctrine that all Calvinists agree with.

 

[Qoheleth]

If God is in fellowship with himself, then he does not need to fellowship with us.

Did not say he needed, simply that he was, and is as witnessed throughout the entire Bible.

And you can debate without having a position.

Well, okay. Still, I am trying to understand so that I will fully appreciate the words of my God and savior.

 

[theseed]

I've explained it the best I could

I will let others step in and answer your questions, although thier views will vary slightly from mine.

 

[tigersnare]

Can you support this in scripture that glory is more important to God than his beloved
creations.

Are you sure about this

He does not have to support anything to you in this forum, you are not reformed and you are arguing and asking for proof from the scriptures, and went as far as to quote scripture to refute his stance. This is breaking the rules as the seed has warned you about many times thus far.

But on topic of the discussion, you seem to be concentrating all your efforts to figure out why God doesn't save everyone, I've found it to be much more rewarding to think of it this way....Why is God saying anyone?

After all, we live our lives in rebellion, in hate towards him, and even have murderous intent toward him. Although he is our maker, our protector, and our provider. God's common grace goes out to all man, unwarranted. And in return his creation curses the very graces he bestowes on them.

Why would God save anyone like that? *rhetorical*

 

[cygnusx1]

Well, Im confused. If we as Christians define God as pure Love first (yes he demonstrates justice and mercy) then why wouldnt God choose (as pure love would) to save everybody not just a few or even a large number but all.

Likewise, if my three children were lost, would I, out of our limited human love only try to find (save) one and not the others. Of course not, my children are equals in my heart and I would save them all. Isnt Gods love far more pure and complete than mine??

But does not God preach the Gospel indiscriminately?
Does He not give millions the opportunity to be saved by faith,who He knows are never going to believe?

Did not Jesus heal the multitudes regardless of their gratitude?

I believe God does as much if not more for the reprobate that an Arminian says He does for everyone,but God also judges them!

 

[Qoheleth]

Sorry, I didnt know that this would become hostile. You make a very valid point. How on earth am I supposed to find out more of the Calvinist position if I cant ask direct questions about things that confuse me. I am not saying your wrong, please, Im saying that I am uncomfortable with the free will approach yet I need to clear a few issues up.

Also, "Why is God saving anyone", well for me and ITS JUST FOR ME. It would seem absolutely illogical and fruitless and unreasonable with no intent or thought to create a world that would fall and not have a plan to bring some back (some way) to the fold. Thats why he saves any...To me.

 

[cygnusx1]

Sorry, I didnt know that this would become hostile.

Hostile,HOStile,HOSTILE?

If you will just stand next to this for a minute

I am sure we can work out our differences......

 

[Ken]

Okay, but I think our question is more of why does God want the Gospel proclaimed if it doesn't matter in regards to people's salvation or lack thereof?

Who said it doesn't matter? Certainly not the Calvinist.... as has been mentioned, the proclamation of the Gospel (either preached or read) is God's most often used means when regenerating their heart.....



it is not the Christian's responsibility to wonder who is saved and who is not, that’s God's business... the Christian's business is to be obedient to the command to go out and preach to all the nations...



what is so freeing when considering evangelism from a Calvinistic perspective is that its not my job to try and work someone up into some emotional state to "try and get a decision for Christ", its not my job to be the greatest apologist for the Christian faith such that I am able to remove every single intellectual obstacle from someone exercising faith, nor is it my job to try and take the responsibility for someone's acceptance or rejection of the Gospel, a la Charles Finney.... no... I preach the Gospel as I am able, and leave the results to God, rejoicing that God would use such a one as myself for His purposes.. whatever they be, for it is God that gives the increase, I am to plant and water... finally, remember that many great missionaries/evangelists who were and are Calvinists, so there is nothing inherently contradictory about the 2... ie God's sovereignty in salvation and the preaching of the gospel….

 

[Ken]

I'm not saying he does things for anothers glory, but i'm saying if he creates us so he can glorify himself, it seems self centered/point less. What i am saying is, what I believe is God created us so that we could share in his glory, because god is generous and loving.

I can think of no better answer to this than John Piper's Intro to Desiring God:

"4. The next insight came again from C. S. Lewis, but this time from his Reflections on the Psalms. Chapter nine of this book bears the modest title "A Word about Praise." In my experience it has been the word about praise-the best word on the nature of praise I have ever read.

Lewis says that as he was beginning to believe in God, a great stumbling block was the presence of demands scattered through the Psalms that he should praise God. He did not see the point in all this; besides, it seemed to picture God as craving "for our worship like a vain woman who wants compliments." He goes on to show why he was wrong.

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]But the most obvious fact about praise-whether of God or anything-strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise.... The world rings with praise-lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game.... [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value. [/font]

[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation."[/font]

For a thoroughgoing explanation of this, I encourage you to read the entire book, it is available online at http://www.desiringgod.org/dg/id63.htm

blessings

 

[BT]

If I can start a sub-thread in here...

From where did Calvin come up with this doctrine? (of grace naturally)

That now falls into TULIP

 

[Bulldog]

From where did Calvin come up with this doctrine? (of grace naturally)

What exactly do you mean?

Calvin, Knox, and the other Calvinist Reformers based the doctrines of grace on the Bible, of course.

 

[Ken]

Q, you said

Well, Im confused. If we as Christians define God as pure Love first (yes he demonstrates justice and mercy) then why wouldnt God choose (as pure love would) to save everybody not just a few or even a large number but all.

Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth (I hesitate to say 2 cents at this point as I am not sure if they will be worth even that much )....

Firstly, taking any one aspect of God's nature, or His moral attributes, and trying to say that it is central or prior in any way to His other attributes, is probably not possible. People often say that "God is love" and they are right.. but defining what this "love" means as to its practical working out, it is necessary to take His other attributes into account... one attribute can never be taken in isolation from the others

Likewise, if my three children were lost, would I, out of our limited human love only try to find (save) one and not the others. Of course not, my children are equals in my heart and I would save them all. Isnt Gods love far more pure and complete than mine?? Burn with wrath, no I dont. Mad as I can possibly be at times, but this doesnt usurp the place of Love in my heart. I cant see how it would in the pure unadulterated Love that God has.

Here is where the analogy to a human father breaks down. Yes God’s love is far more pure than ours could ever be, but it doesn’t necessarily follow from that, that He must save everyone. Secondly, all people are not equals in God’s mind. There are His children, and there are His enemies. Further, God has a history of treating persons in whatever way He sees fit, as He is the sovereign Creator of all. This is why Paul can refer back to Exodus and say:
Rom 9:10-23 ESV And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, (11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (12) she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—“

It is my impression through scripture that God is constantly chasing after his "fold" and re-establishing relationships (covenants). He is relentless about this love.

True. This is the doctrine of Irresistible Grace.

1 Corinthians13 tells us that Love is patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, is not proud, is not rude, is not self seeking, is not easily angered, keeps no record of wrongs, does not delight in evil, rejoices with the truth, always hopes. always perseveres, and never fails.

If this is love that describes love as far we can understand it, how much more is it attributed to the Almighty Father. God has time and time again included us in a relationship with him (one of love and guidance) just as the Trinity is indeed a relationship of love.

If we look at just one of these descriptions of what love is, and try to apply it to God, instead of for what Paul meant, ie that this is a model for humans to love, we run into immediate problems. Again, looking at just one of these descriptions, for instance “keeps no record of wrongs”, what are we to say of a God that “remembers” person’s unrepentant sin, and as a result casts them into Hell? He has apparently “violated” 1 Cor. 13 no matter if one is an Arminian or a Calvinist.

Whether or not we are enemies (due to sin-separation) and His glory must be expressed as you say, Love as we have seen, may conquer all of this by a relationship of volition.

It may… but it does not always do so…

I Most certainly do not believe in universal salvation. No, the Father does not compromise with sin and neither will he tolerate its ultimate end. He has sent his son to effectively reverse the sin of Adam in creation. Though he has tolerated it (sin) for some time now, he will not allow it to ultimately destroy his creations.

If God has effectively reversed the sin for all of mankind by the atonement, then why do some still sin? They would be like pre-fallen Adam, untouched by the taint of original sin… surely, if this were the case, then some would have lived their lives in perfect obedience to God’s Law. But this is not the case, all have sinned, even if not sinning the sin Adam originally committed: “Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.” (Ro. 5:14). Why death then? Again, why is there still this universal sin if Christ reversed the sin of all mankind? Because apparently God did not intend for the Atonement to merely make man savable, but to actually in fact save. This is the doctrine of Particular Redemption (Limited Atonement).

[snip]

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