ASIDE from apparent Biblical injunctions...

[BereanTodd]

why not?

Society has no right to tell two adult people what to do in the privacy of their own homes, morality can not be legislated (hence my support of gay marriage). However, when innocent children are involved, I do think they need to be protected.

 

[PinkTulip]

Nonsense. Can you come up with a NON BIBLICAL reason to condemn murder? Sure... bad for society, upsets people, counter productive, the list goes on. See? No Bible verse needed. My initial question, and my intention for this whole thread, was to see if anyone could do something similar for this thread. Thus far, I've seen lots of whining about why they should be allowed to cite the Bible even in a discussion that is supposed to be strictly NON-biblical... but I've seen no attempt to explain anything apparently wrong with homosexuality that relies on self contained logic and social principals.

What exactly are you looking for? Christianity is not the only religion to condemn homosexuality. I believe I posted on here that many sects of Buddhism (including Tibetan Buddhism) condemn homosexuality, as well as many Hindus condemn homosexuality. Going back to Ancient Greece, Plato condemned homosexuality. Let's not forget Islam. Taoism (Yang/Yang doesn't work)..I don't think I need to go on. Society is constructed on the foundation of moral values - religion, culture, etc (Soc 101). Western society is predominately Christian (this is why many groups condemn it). With that comes defining roles for men, women, family and society as a whole. That is just the way it works, whether you agree with it or not. One can also argue that homosexuality is innately immoral because moral codes and values are biological....but I have to work..

 

[BigBadWlf]

Why ask a moral question of a Christian and then exclude the Bible?? As someone else pointed out, that is the same thing as asking a bird to fly, right after cutting off it's wings.

the bible is and has been used to justify racism, sexism, genocide and a whole list of other things as "moral" just because someone can cite bible verses does not mean that what they are advocating is good or moral or just.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Society has no right to tell two adult people what to do in the privacy of their own homes, morality can not be legislated (hence my support of gay marriage). However, when innocent children are involved, I do think they need to be protected.

Protected form what exactly?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Sure then, how about this. Homosexual males make up about 2-3% of the population, and yet are nearly half the cases of AIDS. Coincidence?

Two points.

First you might want to learn something about HIV/AIDS and who has it.

http://www.who.int/hiv/en/
http://globalatlas.who.int/
“Worldwide, more than 90 percent of all adolescent and adult HIV infections have resulted from heterosexual intercourse.” http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/womenhiv.htm

And second. If we accept your premise that it is ethical to use the existence of a disease to justify prejudice and discrimination and since you brought up HIV/AIDS..it is worth noting that in this country blacks account for the majority of cases of HIV/AIDS yet make only a small percentage of the total population….meaning that your argument here is also an argument for racism.

Studies show that homosexuals are far more likely to experience domestic violence/"spousal abuse".

Evidence please.

We could list other facts like this.

You have posted claims often seen on hate sites…not facts.

Now as I said before, I actually support gay marriage, believe gays should be protected in the workplace, and despise the idiots like those who say things like "God hates f**s". I welcome gays to attend my church, I think we should show love to homosexuals (as we should to ANYONE). We are not to judge those who are in the world, regardless of their particular sin issue.

At the same time I do not think that homosexuals should be allowed to adopt or be foster parents, and I absolutely believe it to be immoral, the Bible is unambiguous on that, and no homosexual would be allowed to JOIN a church I was the head over.

Your advocating of discrimination against an entire minority contradicts your claims of loving thy neighbor.

But again, non-biblical arguments are an acceptable form of defining what laws we should have in a society. They are not an acceptable way of defining what is morally right and wrong. There is an objective truth out there, and God has given us His word.

And you have been unable to provide such a basis for laws that discriminate against an entire minority.

 

[BigBadWlf]

What exactly are you looking for? Christianity is not the only religion to condemn homosexuality. I believe I posted on here that many sects of Buddhism (including Tibetan Buddhism) condemn homosexuality, as well as many Hindus condemn homosexuality. Going back to Ancient Greece, Plato condemned homosexuality. Let's not forget Islam. Taoism (Yang/Yang doesn't work)..I don't think I need to go on. Society is constructed on the foundation of moral values - religion, culture, etc (Soc 101). Western society is predominately Christian (this is why many groups condemn it). With that comes defining roles for men, women, family and society as a whole. That is just the way it works, whether you agree with it or not. One can also argue that homosexuality is innately immoral because moral codes and values are biological....but I have to work..

Christianity is not the only religion to justify slavery, racism, sexism, blood sacrifice and so on…does this fact make any of these things right or moral or just?

 

[PinkTulip]

Christianity is not the only religion to justify slavery, racism, sexism, blood sacrifice and so on…does this fact make any of these things right or moral or just?

Why do we keep going back to the same arguments?
I didn't say anything about any of those items. Furthermore, the NT never condoned or encouraged anyone to do any of those things. By the way, I thought the OT was obsolete and we did not live under the Law, so why bother bringing anything up from it up?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Why do we keep going back to the same arguments?
I didn't say anything about any of those items. Furthermore, the NT never condoned or encouraged anyone to do any of those things. By the way, I thought the OT was obsolete and we did not live under the Law, so why bother bringing anything up from it up?

Yet you happily used the notion that since other religions support prejudice than it must be all right.

So the question posed to you is quite legitimate.

 

[PinkTulip]

Yet you happily used the notion that since other religions support prejudice than it must be all right.

So the question posed to you is quite legitimate.

If you go back and read what Enemy stated "but I've seen no attempt to explain anything apparently wrong with homosexuality that relies on self contained logic and social principals."...I was trying to explain to her that this is impossible to do - one cannot do this when society's social principles are rooted in religion. I did not say anything about my own beliefs nor do I determine what is right or wrong. You are just adding to what I stated. If you would like to know whether I think slavery is right or wrong, I will tell you. No, I do not believe it is right. The Bible never encourages anyone to take someone against their will and enslave them. Slavery was different than the US slave trade. Sexism? The NT states we are all equal, so yes, I agree with that. Blood Shed? Do you mean war? It depends..I have many views on that. Homosexuality? I believe, as the NT states, that it is a sin. I also believe in the 14th Amendment and equal protection. If same sex marriage passed federally, I would recognize it. However, I do not believe that it is a holy marriage; therefore, I do not think churches should bless it.

 

[Brieuse]

Two points.

First you might want to learn something about HIV/AIDS and who has it.

http://www.who.int/hiv/en/
http://globalatlas.who.int/
“Worldwide, more than 90 percent of all adolescent and adult HIV infections have resulted from heterosexual intercourse.” http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/womenhiv.htm

And second. If we accept your premise that it is ethical to use the existence of a disease to justify prejudice and discrimination and since you brought up HIV/AIDS..it is worth noting that in this country blacks account for the majority of cases of HIV/AIDS yet make only a small percentage of the total population….meaning that your argument here is also an argument for racism.



Evidence please.


You have posted claims often seen on hate sites…not facts.

Your advocating of discrimination against an entire minority contradicts your claims of loving thy neighbor.


And you have been unable to provide such a basis for laws that discriminate against an entire minority.

Most of the hate starts this way

 

[PinkTulip]

Two points.

First you might want to learn something about HIV/AIDS and who has it.

http://www.who.int/hiv/en/
http://globalatlas.who.int/
“Worldwide, more than 90 percent of all adolescent and adult HIV infections have resulted from heterosexual intercourse.” http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/womenhiv.htm

And second. If we accept your premise that it is ethical to use the existence of a disease to justify prejudice and discrimination and since you brought up HIV/AIDS..it is worth noting that in this country blacks account for the majority of cases of HIV/AIDS yet make only a small percentage of the total population….meaning that your argument here is also an argument for racism.



Evidence please.


You have posted claims often seen on hate sites…not facts.

Your advocating of discrimination against an entire minority contradicts your claims of loving thy neighbor.


And you have been unable to provide such a basis for laws that discriminate against an entire minority.

If you really want to get technical it is black, gay males that make up all new HIV patients in the US, so the original poster is not wrong if they are looking at it from a US point of view. Your statistics include all the African cases.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Ah... so, maybe it ISN'T quite as objective and clear as you initially said... now you have to use logic... presumeably to INTERPRET it...

So, back to the earlier question... how do you know YOUR bversion of logic is the correct one?

So what you are saying is that there is no absolute truth?

 

[david_x]

Nonsense. Can you come up with a NON BIBLICAL reason to condemn murder? Sure... bad for society, upsets people, counter productive, the list goes on. See? No Bible verse needed. My initial question, and my intention for this whole thread, was to see if anyone could do something similar for this thread. Thus far, I've seen lots of whining about why they should be allowed to cite the Bible even in a discussion that is supposed to be strictly NON-biblical... but I've seen no attempt to explain anything apparently wrong with homosexuality that relies on self contained logic and social principals.

You just used biblical reasons to dispell the use of biblical resons. Contradictory?

 

[david_x]

Protected form what exactly?

Kids that grow up in homosexual house holds do worse than kids braught up in heterosexual homes. (Grades, behavior, etc.)

Christianity is not the only religion to justify slavery, racism, sexism, blood sacrifice and so on…does this fact make any of these things right or moral or just?

You are saved by a blood sacrifice.
There is nothing wrong with slavery in general.
Racism-n/a
Sexism-I have heard counter arguments on that one in the NT.

 

[PinkTulip]

Kids that grow up in homosexual house holds do worse than kids braught up in heterosexual homes. (Grades, behavior, etc.)



You are saved by a blood sacrifice.
There is nothing wrong with slavery in general.
Racism-n/a
Sexism-I have heard counter arguments on that one in the NT.

I am a slave, a slave to student loans.

Totally OT hehe

 

[BigBadWlf]

If you really want to get technical it is black, gay males that make up all new HIV patients in the US, so the original poster is not wrong if they are looking at it from a US point of view. Your statistics include all the African cases.

you may wish to familiarize yourself with the facts.
you may wish to familiarize yourself with the facts.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/frtp/youngaawomen.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5404a2.htm

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cacheaJe9pGA-tYJ:www.omhrc.gov/hivaidsobservances/women/images/WomenFactSheet.pdf+cdc+hiv+infection+african+american+women&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

It is actually African American women who contracted HIV through heterosexual sex.

Which is beside the point. Back the real question here: Why does a virus make racism justifiable?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Kids that grow up in homosexual house holds do worse than kids braught up in heterosexual homes. (Grades, behavior, etc.)

false



Judith Stacey and Timothy Biblarz Stacey and Biblarz "(How) Does Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter?" American Sociological Review, 2001, Vol. 66 (April:159–183) 159

Allen, Mike and Nancy Burrell. 1996. "Comparing the Impact of Homosexual and Heterosexual Parents on Children: Meta-Analysis of Existing Research." Journal of Homosexuality 32:19–35.


Nicholson, Jimmie Price, and Richard Wilson. 1993. "A Review of Data Based Studies Addressing the Affects of Homosexual Parenting on Children's Sexual and Social Functioning." Journal of Divorce and Remarriage


Downey, Douglas B. and Brian Powell. 1993. "Do Children in Single-Parent Households
Fare Better Living with Same-Sex Parents?" Journal of Marriage and the Family 55:55–72.


Green, Richard, Jane Barclay Mandel, Mary E. Hotvedt, James Gray and Laurel Smith. 1986. "Lesbian Mothers and Their Children: A Comparison with Solo Parent Heterosexual Mothersand Their Children." Archives of Sexual Behavior 15:167–84.

And literally hundreds of other studies show that children raised by same sex couples fare just as well if not better in school and social life as compared to their heterosexually raised peers.

You are saved by a blood sacrifice.

There is nothing wrong with slavery in general.

Tell that to the slaves

Racism-n/a
Sexism-I have heard counter arguments on that one in the NT.

Very applicable as there is no difference between racism and the promotion and justification of prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals.

 

[PinkTulip]

you may wish to familiarize yourself with the facts.
you may wish to familiarize yourself with the facts.
http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/PUBLICATIONS/frtp/youngaawomen.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5404a2.htm

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cacheaJe9pGA-tYJ:www.omhrc.gov/hivaidsobservances/women/images/WomenFactSheet.pdf+cdc+hiv+infection+african+american+women&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

It is actually African American women who contracted HIV through heterosexual sex.

Which is beside the point. Back the real question here: Why does a virus make racism justifiable?

You may want to go back and read what those stats are stating because you are reading them incorrectly. There is no mention of the entire population of persons infected with HIV. These studies are simply stating that black women are the fastest growing population with HIV/AIDS. I am not disputing that. It does not state WHO is the largest population of people infected with HIV/AIDS in the UNITED STATES, which is what I was stating. It is BLACK, GAY MEN. And no, it does not matter, but I was simply stating you are wrong about your stats. I have studies AIDS/HIV policies through work and in grad school so I have a small idea of what I am speaking about.

http://www.thebody.com/content/whatis/art39538.html

 

[david_x]

Tell that to the slaves

That doesn't include the abuse of slaves or slavery for sex.

Very applicable as there is no difference between racism and the promotion and justification of prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals.

Unapplicable as skin is genetic were as homosexuality is fabricated, a snare if you will.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Unapplicable as skin is genetic were as homosexuality is fabricated, a snare if you will.

So what, you just discard all the evidence that suggests homosexuality is genetic?