Ash Wednesday, Still No Common Knowledge of Orthodoxy

[~Anastasia~]

Here's an example. I happened to be searching for something else and came upon a website that is the books for dummies series.

To experiement, I searched for Orthodoxy, Orthodox, Orthodox Christianity, and got almost nothing.

Here's an example:

Content Search - For Dummies

Who would like to collaborate with me and see if we can get an "Orthodox Christianity for Dummies" put on that site?

It sounds like a great idea and I wouldn't mind being helpful. But I'm only what - three months officially Orthodox? (Wow, it does seem longer!) But still, I'm hardly anyone who has any right or business writing anything as a representative of the Church. That sounds pretty ridiculous, as new as I am.

 

[ArmyMatt]

just got the blessing to flyer for Pascha and for the Memorial Day pilgrimage, so hopefully that can get the word out. slowly but surely the word can get out about the True Church.

 

[Dewi Sant]

Here's an example. I happened to be searching for something else and came upon a website that is the books for dummies series.

To experiement, I searched for Orthodoxy, Orthodox, Orthodox Christianity, and got almost nothing.

Here's an example:

Content Search - For Dummies

Who would like to collaborate with me and see if we can get an "Orthodox Christianity for Dummies" put on that site?

Count me in!


And ArmyMatt, super!

 

[E.C.]

Orthodoxy simply needs to organize and get out of the ghetto. We're scattered and divided along ethnic lines and we can't survive that way. Anytime I mention that I'm Orthodox people will make the following assumptions: Jewish, Greek, Russian. I am neither. I am American; none of those things. I can't get excited about ethnic festivals, because they center around ethnic groups I have no connection with other than religion.

It would not be that horribly difficult for a few parishes in one area to take turns hosting Agape Vespers after Pascha. It would also not be too horribly difficult for those parishes to put the word out that if you missed celebrating Easter you could celebrate with them And with BBQ too

 

[ArmyMatt]

It would also not be too horribly difficult for those parishes to put the word out that if you missed celebrating Easter you could celebrate with them And with BBQ too

good point EC. I know St Vlad's for their Orthodox Education day has a huge ethnic food tent, and one of the things they offer is BBQ, since we are Americans and that is a huge part of our culinary heritage. made me happy to have pulled pork with my gyro

 

[RileyG]

Riley - the Sunday is called Sunday of Forgiveness as well as Cheesefast Sunday .

Cheesefast reminds us that from now we refrain from eating all dairy produce until Pascha [ unless our Priest/SF has mitigated the fast for us ]


Some Churches do not hold Vespers - mine doesn't as our Priest has to go to small groups of our people in other areas .

So for us - once Liturgy is over on Sunday we are actually entering the Great Fast.

Thank you for your answer Anhelyna.

 

[Nik0s]

What do you expect? We live in the West!

 

[MKJ]

I really think that the calender issue has a lot to do with it.

Many people today have a really hard time getting their head around the idea of Easter being a moveable holiday, even some Christians.

When they see that the EO have Lent or whatever on a different date, and it is because their calender is out of sync with the one in common use, they kind of glaze over.

Or they even think - well, they start Lent at the same date except they have named the days differently so they same date falls at a different time, so it is like they have started it at the same time and what is to notice? A bit like no one takes notice of places that don't do daylight savings time unless they actually need to call them on the phone.

 

[Dewi Sant]

I agree, the calendar with respect to Easter is problematic in this regard.

I remember when I first came to Orthodoxy (a few weeks before forgiveness Sunday) and people were apologising that they wouldn't be there for 'pasta', or that 'pasta' is a wonderful thing, the highlight of their year. It seemed that people were making a big thing about something so mundane as flour, eggs and oil.
Only later did I realise that it is 'Pascha'. (could be that the accent here makes it possible to mispronounce but really, pasta was the closest word I already knew which contains those sounds in that order with the difference of one phoneme).
What is wrong with calling it Easter eh?
Likewise, I know Christmas is a shortened form of 'the Christ Mass' but to use the traditional term 'Holy Nativity' as the sole name of that festival puts linguistic barrier to people wanting to listen in or participate in conversations at church.

At a church I attended for a while they made use of an Advent Wreath but with the addition of the extra candles for the six Sundays of Advent according to the Orthodox practice. It was a nice touch for those who have fond memories of lighting the candles in anticipation of Christmas/HolyNativity/Weihnachten and served only to *add*, not to reduce to the church's practice.

Orthodoxy, if it is to be viable, which is to say, life infusing to contemporary 'western' society, must be responsive to the culture, incorporating that which is communicative of Christ and His good will within the life and spirit of the Church in that community. This is only where the spirit of worship is not affected negatively and only with the prayerful guidance of the bishops of the Church.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

I've said it for a while now - one of the biggest, quickest, simplest things we can do to bring Orthodoxy out of the 'ghetto' is to remove the ethnic monikers from our signs and names. We should not be St. Parakseva Ukrainain Orthodox or St. Vladimir Russian Orthodox or St. Sava Serbian Orthodox Church. We need to be just St. Paraskeva Orthodox Church, St. Vladimir Orthodox, etc etc. Even better - St. Paraskeva Orthodox Christian Church.

In a lot of places we're not fighting actual ethnicism anymore, but we're still fighting percieved ethnicism. People assume our church is for Greeks, Russians, and Serbs. Of course they do - our signs say it right on them. Their removal wouldn't only be a statement to outsiders but if we got used to calling each other just "Orthodox" and let "Greek Orthodox" and "Russian Orthodox" die in our vocabulary we'd be well on the road to actual unity, where our churches just assume we're all Orthodox, rather than divided in our own country.

 

[Dewi Sant]

We need to be just St. Paraskeva Orthodox Church, St. Vladimir Orthodox, etc etc. Even better - St. Paraskeva Orthodox Christian Church.

And where possible, have new churches consecrated to local saints. Yes, easier in Europe than US.
"St. Patrick's Orthodox Church", "St. Wilfred's Orthodox Church", "St. Martin of Tours' Orthodox Church", "St. Herman of Alaska Orthodox Church".

It is about recovering and celebrating the life and witness of Orthodox Christianity in these parts, not an importing of something foreign.

I find 'Orthodox Christian Church' to be problematic.
It is true, yes, but the insertion of 'Christian' is used by many heretical organisations.
Rather like when states call themselves 'Democratic Peoples Republic of....'
"Church" should be enough to make it clear not to be a synagogue, that and whopping huge crosses, icons, and clouds of incense streaming down the highway

 

[Thekla]

Many years (decades) ago, my husband and I ran a small bookstore. We were advised to advertise; even got a spot on a local TV news program. The only difference we noticed about advertising was that we received a lot of customers who didn't actually purchase anything, had a tendency to gawk or complain about the selection and size of the store, or make unreasonable demands ("why can't you give me a discount on the book ? well then, despite your spending 20 minutes to select an appropriate gift for someone, I'll go elsewhere" ).

So we stopped spending money on advertising, worked hard to maintain the integrity of our commitment to what we were doing, and relied on word of mouth. We built a great customer base, including folks who would drive an hour or so just to shop at our store, and folks who were recommended to come to our store instead when mail ordering from publishers, even when shopping at a bookstore in NYC ( about 2-3 hours away).

I don't think "advertising" is always the key, or even "official looking" organization.

The Amish ask what the cost of technology would be, and respond accordingly (eschewing the purchase of a tractor even though they could buy one, as it would mean less time with family in order to justify the expense).

Not that I am suggesting we become luddites, but that instead we measure such things against our ethos and their unintended costs. What some folks call chaotic is not ... it just points to a different priority.

(And presently reading a book that posits the intimate link between Modernism in the Arts - clean simple lines, organization, etc. - with Protestantism, with a focus on Calvinism.)

 

[~Anastasia~]

(And presently reading a book that posits the intimate link between Modernism in the Arts - clean simple lines, organization, etc. - with Protestantism, with a focus on Calvinism.)

Sounds like an interesting book.


Not meaning to ignore the bulk of your post. I agree that considering priorities is important when deciding how to structure one's life. But I admit that I haven't ever thought of how that applies in the current discussion of the Church.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

And where possible, have new churches consecrated to local saints. Yes, easier in Europe than US.
"St. Patrick's Orthodox Church", "St. Wilfred's Orthodox Church", "St. Martin of Tours' Orthodox Church", "St. Herman of Alaska Orthodox Church".

It is about recovering and celebrating the life and witness of Orthodox Christianity in these parts, not an importing of something foreign.

I find 'Orthodox Christian Church' to be problematic.

I agree, even probably on the "Orthodox Christian Church." I just wish there were a way we could get the expression "Orthodox" to mean "Orthodox Christian" to people in the same way "Catholic" means "a type of Christian." But of course, Roman Catholic doesn't have Christian in its title, and in some places it's still not considered Christian, so it might be best to just go with what flows better, which I think would just be "St. John Orthodox Church"

Of course, I wish too we could get people to understand that we're Catholic as well, without thinking of us as being Roman Catholic, but that's probably a pipe dream. I've seen a photo of one parish that was something like "St. John Orthodox Christian Catholic Church" but talk about a mouthful!

I don't think "advertising" is always the key, or even "official looking" organization.

You raise valuable points, but the question becomes "How do we get the people into our parishes in the first place?" People would occasionally just come into your bookstore because they needed a book. Our problem is we often have a 'product' that people either don't think they need, or is already being supplied elsewhere. A friend and I were just talking about this today: it used to be you could go to the forum and start preaching to get people to notice you. But where is the 'forum' today? How do we get to the people?

 

[E.C.]

You raise valuable points, but the question becomes "How do we get the people into our parishes in the first place?" People would occasionally just come into your bookstore because they needed a book. Our problem is we often have a 'product' that people either don't think they need, or is already being supplied elsewhere. A friend and I were just talking about this today: it used to be you could go to the forum and start preaching to get people to notice you. But where is the 'forum' today? How do we get to the people?

Coffee shops, cafes, bookstores, bars and restaurants.


We had a monk visit the old parish back home some years ago. From what I remember his monastery was in Ohio and he and a few others at the time would have a book club meeting in the local mall food court. Other than Orthodox books they would discuss classic literature in an Orthodox context and how it relates today, etc etc; but the point is that it was an Orthodox presence in a public setting.

In 2011 when the OCA had the All-American Council in Washington state, the meetings themselves took place in Bellevue (East of Seattle across Lake Washington) at a Hyatt Regency hotel. Across the street was an Irish pub. I volunteered all week for various things, but every night the Irish pub was full of priests in cassocks and pectoral crosses. I heard from Abbot Tryphon one night that the bartender said, "We're just happy this isn't a Baptist convention!"
I went there a couple nights and overheard a few conversations between clergy and random people from the area who'd never heard of Orthodoxy before. While I don't know if any of those people became Orthodox or not, there is no denying that seeds of Orthodoxy were planted as a result of that Irish pub.


As one who occasionally frequents a pub once in a while I will personally assure you that sometimes the conversation goes towards religion. There are ways of discussing Orthodoxy without being pushy and without proselytizing; it just requires a certain degree of timing and politeness. Sometimes the seeds of Orthodoxy get planted in the oddest of places, but planted they get.

 

[dzheremi]

You raise valuable points, but the question becomes "How do we get the people into our parishes in the first place?"

I think it was in on of Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's podcasts on AFR (I can't remember which) that he said "100% of the people you bring to church will be in church." I know it's easier said than done, but if you do happen to meet people who are even mildly curious, bring them to church. Or Vespers, if a liturgy might be too much all at once and scare them away.

That's the first thing anyone in my little congregation says whenever I mention meeting a new person: "When are you bringing them to church?" (Kind of a weird question to ask about a physical therapist, but hey...they've got the right attitude, these wacky Copts.)

 

[Thekla]

You raise valuable points, but the question becomes "How do we get the people into our parishes in the first place?" People would occasionally just come into your bookstore because they needed a book. Our problem is we often have a 'product' that people either don't think they need, or is already being supplied elsewhere. A friend and I were just talking about this today: it used to be you could go to the forum and start preaching to get people to notice you. But where is the 'forum' today? How do we get to the people?

To some extent, the forum is everywhere ...

festivals actually; our Church tours are well attended and always given by a priest at our parish.

In the community, through participation in food banks and other programs. The processions during Holy Week always cause traffic slowdowns Through the Orthodox laity (at my husband's workplace, the manager now asks "when's you Easter ?" So do others.). We've a large parish, with two services, so it's hard to track all the new members. But our priest uses the same title for all converts, and I've been ordering well over 20 copies of this title per year for our parish bookstore.

I do think we need to more deeply and patiently consider the impact of any proposals on the character and ethos of the Church.

 

[Thekla]

I think it was in on of Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick's podcasts on AFR (I can't remember which) that he said "100% of the people you bring to church will be in church." I know it's easier said than done, but if you do happen to meet people who are even mildly curious, bring them to church. Or Vespers, if a liturgy might be too much all at once and scare them away.

That's the first thing anyone in my little congregation says whenever I mention meeting a new person: "When are you bringing them to church?" (Kind of a weird question to ask about a physical therapist, but hey...they've got the right attitude, these wacky Copts.)

my daughter, when she accepts dates, first makes it clear that she's an Orthodox Christian and the 'guy' should be willing to visit her Church if they're not EO

 

[~Anastasia~]

Coffee shops, cafes, bookstores, bars and restaurants.


We had a monk visit the old parish back home some years ago. From what I remember his monastery was in Ohio and he and a few others at the time would have a book club meeting in the local mall food court. Other than Orthodox books they would discuss classic literature in an Orthodox context and how it relates today, etc etc; but the point is that it was an Orthodox presence in a public setting.

In 2011 when the OCA had the All-American Council in Washington state, the meetings themselves took place in Bellevue (East of Seattle across Lake Washington) at a Hyatt Regency hotel. Across the street was an Irish pub. I volunteered all week for various things, but every night the Irish pub was full of priests in cassocks and pectoral crosses. I heard from Abbot Tryphon one night that the bartender said, "We're just happy this isn't a Baptist convention!"
I went there a couple nights and overheard a few conversations between clergy and random people from the area who'd never heard of Orthodoxy before. While I don't know if any of those people became Orthodox or not, there is no denying that seeds of Orthodoxy were planted as a result of that Irish pub.


As one who occasionally frequents a pub once in a while I will personally assure you that sometimes the conversation goes towards religion. There are ways of discussing Orthodoxy without being pushy and without proselytizing; it just requires a certain degree of timing and politeness. Sometimes the seeds of Orthodoxy get planted in the oddest of places, but planted they get.

Instead of our usual Bible study last time, Father took the time to talk about such things. He mentioned that the dress priests wear can make less of an impact though, if they wear the suit and collar, since many people just assume they are Catholic priests.

I'm sure seeing him dressed that way, out with his wife and kids, must cause some confusion at times!

 

[Thekla]

Instead of our usual Bible study last time, Father took the time to talk about such things. He mentioned that the dress priests wear can make less of an impact though, if they wear the suit and collar, since many people just assume they are Catholic priests.

I'm sure seeing him dressed that way, out with his wife and kids, must cause some confusion at times!

Our priest always wears his robe

When his eminence Ambrose (the metropolitan of Korea) visited our parish, he mentioned that wearing his robe had become an evangelical tool. On public transportation, people would point to him and exclaim "Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ". So then he had an opportunity to explain he was not Christ, and continue the conversation to tell of Christ ... and Orthodoxy.