LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
Thank you for asking.

“Irresistible grace” is a phrase that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinners. It is represented by the “I” in the acronym TULIP that is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the doctrines of grace.

Now don't let that scare you. I am not a "Calvinist".

John 6:37-40........
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Some people call this "Election and some Predestination but what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of the work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinful, spiritually dead men. No matter which name you use to refer to the doctrine of irresistible grace, a thorough study of the Bible will reveal that, when properly understood, it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches on this important subject.

Simply put, the doctrine of irresistible grace refers to the biblical truth that whatever God decrees to happen will inevitably come to pass, even in the salvation of individuals. The Holy Spirit will work in the lives of the elect so that they inevitably will come to faith in Christ.

To understand the doctrine of “irresistible grace,” it is important to recognize that this is a special grace given only to those God has chosen for salvation (His elect) and is different from what is known as “common grace” which God bestows on both believer and unbeliever. While there are many aspects of common grace, including life and all that is necessary to sustain it, common grace is what is often referred to as the “outward call of God.”

This is God’s revelation of Himself given to all men through the light of creation and their consciences. It also includes the general call of the gospel that goes out anytime the gospel message is preached. This call can be resisted and rejected by those that receive it. (Matthew 22:14; Romans 1:18-32). However, God also gives an “inward call” which always results in salvation. This is the call of God that Jesus spoke of in John 6:37-47. The certainty of this inward call is seen in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” John 6:44 confirms this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

I hope that answers the "Turtle" debate.

Sorry for the LONG answer!!!
This is COMPELETLY dymetircally opposed to what you were explaining earlier. Earlier you were stating were very much a believer in free will, and hence by natural conclusion opposed to Calvaisism and TULIP. And then you quote the foundation of Calvinism (TULIP as your doctrine), but claim not to be a Calvinist. And then you talki about God forcing certain castes of people. And how one caste is forcefully saved.

So yeah... you have completely confused me as to what you believe. It seems to be a lot of backpedaling and only half of things said earlier. Note: I'm not accusing you of backpedaling or anything like that. It's just what it feels like.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,531
6,412
Midwest
✟80,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Does the concept of free will apply to God in either LDS or Christian theology?

What would God's will need to be 'free' from in order to do whatever He does?

Deep+Thoughts+logo.jpg

Perhaps I asked the question in the wrong way. Mormons taught me that God has free will, but their scriptures say "I, the Lord, am bound..."

Doctrine and Covenants 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Well, that is their god, then. Far be it for me or for anyone to say that they can't claim whatever they want within the bounds of their own theology.

We read in the scriptures, however, that the Lord's thoughts are not our own, neither are our ways His ways, because His ways and His thoughts are high above ours (Isaiah 55:8-9). So we must then wonder how it is that He can be bound by anything in His will, when He is so utterly independent in Himself (this again touches on how absolutely incredible the incarnation is, by which God came to literally, physically dwell with us in the form of a servant). It seems better to me to just say that it is (God is, after all, I AM), and that our job is therefore to follow it, as our Lord taught us to pray "Thy will be done".

I don't really have a definitive answer to this, as it's not the way we are taught to think about God within my own tradition. But I think it's an interesting question. I'd like to read what Mormons have to say about it, if they indeed teach that their God is bound as you say. (I believe you, just so we're clear; I just assume that they will of course have their own take on the matter.)
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,531
6,412
Midwest
✟80,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
But the Lord does his work according to eternal principles and eternal laws. While he is a God of love, he is also a God of order. He does not deviate from the established principles and laws, because they are right in the first place. And he and they are the same yesterday, today, and forever.
The laws and conditions prescribed for the welfare of mankind cannot be changed nor circumvented, because they are divine and were established before the foundation of the world was laid. They are, in fact, the only means by which we can have peace of mind here and gain eternal life hereafter. This is expressed in a great revelation given to the Prophet Joseph, as follows: “For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.” (D&C 132:5.)
ElRay L. Christiansen, The Laws of God Are Blessings, General Conference, April 1975
The Laws of God Are Blessings - ElRay L. Christiansen

But those who do nothing until they are commanded and then keep the commandments unwillingly lose their reward (see D&C 58:26–29).
Chapter 35: Obedience

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Informative
Reactions: dzheremi
Upvote 0

Ironhold

Member
Feb 14, 2014
7,625
1,463
✟201,967.00
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Single
Doctrine and Covenants 82
10 I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise.

Did you really try to make this an argument about free will?

The passage rather clearly states "If you do what you've agreed to, I'll do what I've agreed to; I will uphold the promise."

It's about keeping promises.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jane_Doe
Upvote 0

Major1

Well-Known Member
Sep 17, 2016
10,551
2,837
Deland, Florida
✟203,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This is COMPELETLY dymetircally opposed to what you were explaining earlier. Earlier you were stating were very much a believer in free will, and hence by natural conclusion opposed to Calvaisism and TULIP. And then you quote the foundation of Calvinism (TULIP as your doctrine), but claim not to be a Calvinist. And then you talki about God forcing certain castes of people. And how one caste is forcefully saved.

So yeah... you have completely confused me as to what you believe. It seems to be a lot of backpedaling and only half of things said earlier. Note: I'm not accusing you of backpedaling or anything like that. It's just what it feels like.

I am sorry you see it that way. I am a believer in FREEWILL and I actually thought I explained it very well to you.

Because some part of Calvinism is incorrect IMO, does not mean that it is all incorrect or vice versa.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_Doe

Well-Known Member
Jun 12, 2015
6,658
1,043
115
✟100,321.00
Faith
Mormon
I am sorry you see it that way. I am a believer in FREEWILL and I actually thought I explained it very well to you.
I have been listening to you explain your views, and thought I was following pretty well-- you've done a good job at responding to my clarifying questions. Post 178 is when you started talking about different castes of turtles. That's where you lost me. Can you help me out?
Because some part of Calvinism is incorrect IMO, does not mean that it is all incorrect or vice versa.
Ok, I see your perspective there. Heck, even I could agree with that (like Calvinism does acknowledge Christ is our savior).

[Staff edit].
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
Site Supporter
Apr 25, 2016
34,233
19,070
44
Albury, Australia
Visit site
✟1,507,481.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
red-strawberry-hat-wool-beret-girls-winter-wear20667.jpg

MOD HAT ON
This thread has had a clean.
I've removed posts demonstrating at least six different meanings of the word "flaming."
Therefore, for the edification of all, may I remind you that CF rules state:
Flaming and Goading
  • Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.​
  • Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.​
  • NO Goading. This includes images, cartoons, smileys or post ratings which are clearly meant to goad. Quoting and then editing another members post to change the original meaning, commonly referred to as "fixed it for you" (FIFY), is considered goading.​
  • Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.​
MOD HAT OFF
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,531
6,412
Midwest
✟80,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Mormonism is all about Jesus Christ. We show our love for Him by keeping His commandments.

I'm sure you see it that way. For someone raised in it (perhaps you were) it would seem that way. Mormonism opposes the Gospel that was originally taught by the Apostles. There is only one Gospel. One will remain when all others are destroyed.

I'm sure you keep a lot of extra-biblical commandments since Mormons are taught that their eternal life depends on obedience to those extra-biblical laws and ordinances.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Christ indeed did say that if you love Him you will keep His commandments. Those outside Mormonism would rightfully see Mormonism as not doing so, as they have established temples and sought theocratic government while He did neither. And the churches established by His holy apostles -- St. Peter and St. Paul in Antioch, St. Mark in Egypt, St. Peter in Rome, etc. -- are reviled by Mormonism as having fallen into irrecoverable apostasy, despite our Savior's promise that He would be with His followers forever, and would send in the name of the Father the Holy Spirit, Who would guide the holy apostles into all truth.

It is understandable that a Christian, believing in Him and not in restorationism, would question if the Mormon faith teaches and practices the same trust in the Savior's commands and promises, and thus if it is really following His commandments.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
I'm sure you see it that way. For someone raised in it (perhaps you were) it would seem that way. Mormonism opposes the Gospel that was originally taught by the Apostles. There is only one Gospel. One will remain when all others are destroyed.

I'm sure you keep a lot of extra-biblical commandments since Mormons are taught that their eternal life depends on obedience to those extra-biblical laws and ordinances.
He is the way said:
What extra-Biblical commandments are you referring to? All of the commandments are in the Bible. I know of no extra-Biblical commandments.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Christ indeed did say that if you love Him you will keep His commandments. Those outside Mormonism would rightfully see Mormonism as not doing so, as they have established temples and sought theocratic government while He did neither. And the churches established by His holy apostles -- St. Peter and St. Paul in Antioch, St. Mark in Egypt, St. Peter in Rome, etc. -- are reviled by Mormonism as having fallen into irrecoverable apostasy, despite our Savior's promise that He would be with His followers forever, and would send in the name of the Father the Holy Spirit, Who would guide the holy apostles into all truth.

It is understandable that a Christian, believing in Him and not in restorationism, would question if the Mormon faith teaches and practices the same trust in the Savior's commands and promises, and thus if it is really following His commandments.
He is the way said:
Tabernacles and temples were established by God. The temple is the house of God:

(New Testament | John 2:13 - 17)

13 ¶ And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 9:6 - 7)

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
:sigh:

I can't even believe this needs to be explained, but the point is that Christ did not establish a given temple in the same way that Mormons may open a temple in X location and claim that it is "the house of God", in imitation of the Biblical verses such as you have given.

Also, please stop putting your own replies in quote tags. The point of using the quote function is to quote another's post that you wish to reply to.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
:sigh:

I can't even believe this needs to be explained, but the point is that Christ did not establish a given temple in the same way that Mormons may open a temple in X location and claim that it is "the house of God", in imitation of the Biblical verses such as you have given.

Also, please stop putting your own replies in quote tags. The point of using the quote function is to quote another's post that you wish to reply to.

God commands us to build temples and we build them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
No He doesn't. Christians don't have "temples" in the first place, Jews don't have them anymore (their last one was destroyed in 70 AD; since then, they've only had synagogues), and what Mormons build is not in keeping with either.

I'm not arguing that the temple in Jerusalem never existed (obviously), nor that it was somehow not considered the house of God by the people in its time, but there is no scriptural command nor anything in any of the fathers or other writings of the early Christian church that shows us that Christ ordered any of his followers to build temples. That activity was characteristic of Judaism and Samaritanism (wherein the physical location of the worship was/is incredibly important), and helps to explain why the Jews have not had a temple in over 1900 years. By contrast, the earliest churches were either houses (e.g., the monastery of St. Mark in Jerusalem was originally the apostle's mother's house, and was consecrated as a church even before the destruction of the temple in that same city), synagogues (e.g., the "Synagogue church" of Nazareth), or found in catacombs (as in Rome) or otherwise in caves or other hidden places. (There are many cave churches in Lebanon, Turkey, etc.)

Mormonism is most definitely a step backwards in this regard, as you guys restrict your most 'sacred' rituals to only be held behind closed doors in a very small number of locations where your temples are (as opposed to the less formal meeting houses), only open to a select class of people ('temple recommend'-holding Mormons), etc. None of this is in keeping with anything given to us by Christ and practiced in the early church.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,531
6,412
Midwest
✟80,270.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
What extra-Biblical commandments are you referring to? All of the commandments are in the Bible. I know of no extra-Biblical commandments.

You're the first Mormon I've communicated with who thinks the Bible is a sufficient guide.

Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 109:1 - 3)

1 THANKS be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts—
2 Thou who hast commanded thy servants to build a house to thy name in this place [Kirtland].
3 And now thou beholdest, O Lord, that thy servants have done according to thy commandment.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,567
13,728
✟430,256.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Is that supposed to be in answer to my post, He is the way?

The D&C is not Christian, so I don't see how that answers my objection about what is found in Christian scriptures and other early writings. Might as well quote from the Baghavad Gita or the Granth Guru Sahib.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
You're the first Mormon I've communicated with who thinks the Bible is a sufficient guide.

Nephi testified that the Bible once “contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record” and that “after [the words] go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away” (1 Nephi 13:24, 26).
Boyd K. Packer, “Who Is Jesus Christ?,” Ensign, Mar 2008, 12–19

Although the Book of Mormon helps to clarify the Bible, I know of no extra-Biblical commandments contained therein. I rely of the sermon on the mount and the doctrine of Jesus Christ who gave us the commandments as stated in the Bible.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.